Well, tell us how you started work at Sparrows Point. Did you grow up in this area?

No, I worked at Westinghouse.

Where did you grow up?

I grew up in Cockeysville , and I was married and had three children, I divorced, and I went to work at Westinghouse in Cockeysville and meanwhile then I remarried, and I got pregnant and I thought well, “I have worked all my life, I'm going to stay home.” Well, I just couldn't be a Suzie homemaker, I just don't like that, you can tell, but I just didn't like that. I liked physical work, and a friend of mine had moved in these old apartments in Essex across from Salvo’s, they are torn down, and one of my neighbors, her husband worked at the shipyard, and she said my husband said they are hiring at Bethlehem Steel, the steel mill, do you want to go down there, and I said “yes.” So we went down, it was in 1971, April of 1971, and I made less money at Bethlehem Steel on turn work than I made at Westinghouse when I left there, but that's how I got started, and I would get laid off and stuff, but it didn't bother me at that time because I was married. And then when my second husband and I broke up, you know I couldn't take these layoffs, so I transferred over to the steel side, and it was me and a lady Mary Denny, she is deceased now, and she had to go back to work because she was single to get the benefits for her children, and we went to the employment office, they said the only place we have for you is the batteries, and we are thinking “car batteries.” Well, what can be bad with batteries? They are saying, "Oh, they are terrible," and I can remember Mary and I, we signed up, we went to work. So we go to the steel side -- now, we had been on the finishing side all this time and you know how the parking lots are. Well, when we got to the steel side, we parked and we start walking, we had to go to the coke ovens, and we are walking and walking and we are saying to everybody “how do you get to the coke ovens,” they said “keep going down here.” We are walking, we said they are giving us the runaround, they don't want women here. We didn't realize how far you had to walk. I mean you had to walk, and I guess it was around '73 -- no, I think '76. Anyway, around '78 or something before they had a bus that would pick you up and take you, but I mean it was a long walk. And I went into the labor gang, I went on to batteries, and it was the hardest work, they put me in the mud mill.

And what were the batteries?

The batteries were where they made the coke, and it was like I guess coal comes -- I don't know how they do it, but they would put it -- they had a machine on top that would go over and would drop this coal I guess down into the holes, and that would bake for so long, and then they had like one machine on one side would be a pusher and it would line up to the door, and at that time they had mud -- they had men that did the mudding, and then on the other side would be the catcher, and it would push that ram rod right on through. But I worked in the mud mill, and it was -- you would go out and you would clean these runs. When they would push that coke out, you would have to go with a wheelbarrow and a shovel and all and load it in the wheelbarrow and take it back, and there was a big round thing, a prehistoric big round, had a wheel that went like this and water, and you threw this coke in there and you went down below and you got clay, you put clay in there, and it would mix it into a mud, and as it came into the mud, then I think you opened it up like a little trough, and it would shoot out on the floor, and on seven and eight batteries -- they had up to twelve. I worked five and six I think it was, but anyway, seven and eight, people on five and six or three and four would have to make the mud for seven and eight. I don't know why they didn't have a mud mill, but when I first went there the guy said here's your job. Well, I stuck my shovel in that mud, Bill, and I couldn't pull it out, the suction was holding it, and at the end of the day I would have a pile about that big on that shovel, because it killed you, but you made mud. You had to make so many batches of mud, and then I think around two o'clock, that was the last time you had to have your mud made, and that was the last -- the next shift -- it was clear for like two hours. So with the guys, I was slowing them down. I mean I was working, but I was slowing them down, so we made a deal, I would go out and clean all the runs because they made their last batch of mud I think like at one o'clock, and I would go clean the runs and they were finished at 1:00, and they knew that I would do all that. And so finally I went to Johnny Fair, I went in to get off because like I said my son at that time, my oldest son was in Stembridge Football League, and I wanted to go see the games, and on the batteries you worked turn work, and I can remember going to Johnny Fair and going up to -- I can't remember who the superintendent was at the coke ovens, and he said “boy, you just -- you have too much of an outside life. Maybe you just better quit, you've got too much going on outside.” So there were guys that wanted to get on he batteries because they made the money. The yard gang just cleaned up the coke that fell on the ground and stuff like that. So that's what happened. I had more seniority than a lot of them so that's how when I wanted to get off, I got out. That's what saved me with Johnny. I have to say Johnny did fight for me, maybe toward the end, you know, after everybody started seeing it, the picture changes, and everything was fine, I can't complain about anything. I mean other than you know the flirting and the stuff like that, but I mean I could handle that. It was just when I went into the crafts, and I mean it wasn't me, Paula Bouche was in there before me in refrigeration, and I mean it was awful, awful, and the guys -- there were some guys that were really good friends of mine and they seen what was being done to me, but it was just like that movie [ North Country ] going to stick up, and the only person who stuck up for me was Dave Fenwick, and the foreman had the police come over and took his locker out and swore that his locker hadn't been in there, you know, retaliated against him and all, and Dave transferred out -- this was in the late '90s I guess or 2000. Dave transferred out and went into -- I don't know if it was the bull gang or the pipe itters or something.

Go back and tell us what happened when you went -- why did you go into the crafts, and when was this?

I can't remember.

Roughly.

I'm saying '79 was when I went into the crafts. There was positions opened for electrical helpers over at ERS and refrigeration, and I had gone and taken -- gone over and taken the electrical helper's test and all and passed it, and when I went over to the employment office, it was a gentleman at that time named Mr. Holland, and he was really nice, and I was telling him, you know, why I wanted this job, and he says, "Well, Mary, the best job is the refrigeration." He said, "But the only trouble is you've got the worst boss in the world." He said that was Larry Reece, and I thought well, I can go over there, and when I went over there, I didn't really -- Larry was one of these ones that really hollered at you, but he never held a grudge or anything, you know. You just had to take him. He was nice, I liked him, you knew where you stood with him. But it was some of the men, one of the guys -- when I see that with her with her cigarette, when he reached in her pocket, that's what this one guy would do to me all the time, and one time him and I went down on one of the blast furnaces that was shut down. I didn't know, you know, I just went in there. I knew that in the winter we did maintenance on different things, but I didn't know, and we went on this blast furnace and it was shut down, and he bends down, Bill, and his whole privates, everything is hanging out. It's the God's truth, and all we were doing was changing the filter. I mean I didn't even see him. Put the things on, he got up and went on out to the truck. I would tell my friend, who was Bob Arrowwood, his wife worked there in the machine shop, and she cried all the time, you know, the way they did to her over there, but I could handle that. Then when they got the boss, and I wouldn't want to mention his name, but when we got this one particular boss, he made me -- it was a living hell for me. I mean absolutely -- he would make me wash the trucks, and it wasn't like I didn't mind washing the trucks, but he would stand out there and watch me, and it was just awful with him. And when I went into the last job I had, I had a general foreman named Norman Miller, and right before I retired, right before I went out sick, Norman Miller told me that when I first came over -- I could tell when I came there how the foremen were watching me, you know, and stuff, and he told me that this foreman told him that I wasn't any good, I wouldn't work, I was nothing but to stir up trouble, and everything, and he told me, he says, "You know, Mary, I have never found you to be that way," but that's what this foreman, you know, and I don't know what else. I would have to speak good of everything I did down there except in the crafts, and it's just like that movie, and I mean the girls up in the locker rooms, they knew it.

Did you talk about it in the locker rooms?

Oh, yeah, everybody knew, everybody knew the shit they put me through in refrigeration. Oh, you want to hear about the telephone call. That was in I think '82. I got sent to Pennwood Power, and like I said I went in the electrical department, I was scared to death of electricity. Well, I couldn't get any worse than down there in the powerhouse, but I was working in the powerhouse, and this one guy from ERS, they had sent him, too, the lineman, and he told them he couldn't climb and he was going to bump me because he had more seniority, and I remember the general foreman called me upstairs, and he was on the phone and he says, "What is he going to do, what is he going to come over here and tell us he can't do," and he had told me, he said, "Mary, you know, do everything you can." So when I went out there, Steve Stahoviak -- have you ever heard him? He said, "Girl, get them hooks on because you are going to climb a pole." I said, "Oh, okay, I can climb a pole," and he says, "Real high." I said, "Well, I'm not afraid of heights." I climb on the cranes, you know. He says, "Well, this is nothing like a crane." Well, Bill, I always climbed trees. You know, I grew up in the country before I moved to Cockeysville . That's why I like that kind of work, and I climbed the pole. They brought me out and had all the men come, and I mean you are standing there, and it's not hard, it's all -- because you've got to be bowlegged, have your legs bowlegged get those spikes in. So they had me do that the first day at the end of the day. I would say it was about 2:00. So the next day they sent me on a job and they sent me with my foreman. I had a foreman Mr. Cook, and they sent me over to I think it was third strand or one of those strands over there now, I can't remember, but he came down and he told me I had to go with him, I had to go climb, so I didn't know. It was him and another foreman and me, and they took me down, way down to the coke oven. I was all by myself, us three, and I didn't know to say hey, where is the union rep or where is somebody else, I would go down there with them, and after I got involved I knew it was their word against mine, that's why they did that. So they told me put the spikes on and climb up the pole and keep climbing until they told me to stop, and I couldn't have my belt, my belt was hanging down, but you know how they have them hooked when they are not around the pole, so I kept climbing, and I was getting up really high, and I knew you didn't have to touch that high voltage, just get so close, so I kept climbing. I guess they were waiting for me to say I'm scared or something, but they said okay, you can come down. Well, coming down, see that's where I didn't shove that spike in far enough, and when I pulled the other one out I cut out. Well, going up the pole you use the spikes, but they did have those hand things to hold on. So when I started to fall, my arms were going boom, boom, boom, and I grabbed ahold, but the rawhide on the spikes got caught around one of these hooks and my foot is up in the air like this and I am hanging like this and I couldn't get my foot undone, and I'm looking and I'm really psyching myself up thinking now I'm going to fall, how can I push myself so I fall on my whole body instead of my head or my leg or something. And finally I said to Mr. Cook, I said, "Cookie, I can't get my foot undone." After it all happened I wouldn't have fallen because I would have dangled by my one leg there. He says, "Wait a minute," he came up and he said, "Can you give me your belt," and like here I am hanging, my foot up in the air. So I lean my chest up against there, and I had my arm around and I unhooked it and then I grabbed -- I brought it around. Of course I had to hold on to here real quick, and he wouldn't hook it for me, I had to hook it myself, and then when I sat on my behind on my belt I got my hook undone, and I went on down the pole. So he says to me, "Do you want to go to the dispensary," and I said, "No." I said, "I know I bruised the hell out of myself," but I said, "I know nothing is broke," because it was just burning, and he said, "Okay." So they took me back to this job, so I don't know what the position was, but what we were doing -- they were running new cable, and that stuff is about that thick, and they had put me on the job where they had the truck and they reeled it. Now I had to pull this cable and keep throwing it, but I had to make sure that I stayed away from him because this reel was going around, but it wasn't like you just hold it here, you had to keep it going, and I thought my chest was going to bust. I mean it was really -- where is the end of this cable. So I did that, and the end of the day we go over to electrical construction, and of course the men all had bathrooms, and of course I didn't, but I didn't want to make a big stink, I just wore my clothes home. So I forget what his name, Richard something, he came and he says to me, "You are laid off," this was on a Tuesday. I said, "I'm laid off? Why am I laid off?" He said, "You can't do the job," and I said to my foreman, I said, "Cookie, what did you ask me to do that I couldn't do?" And he said, "Mary, it's not me, it's higher up." So I just started crying because I couldn't afford it with the kids. I'm hysterical crying, and to this day I don't know who it was, somebody came and said get to the dispensary. So I went flying over to dispensary, and I am just sobbing like a nut, and I see Bill Nugent, and I think it might have been -- I don't know if it was Eddie Bartee or there was another black gentleman I think that was in the union at that time. I know Bill Nugent. But anyway, I stopped my car in the middle of the road when I see them, and I'm flagging them down, I mean I am crying my eyeballs out. Bill goes, "What's wrong," and I told him that they laid me off. He said, "Well, they can't lay you off because you hurt yourself." I said, "They didn't lay me off because I hurt myself. They said they laid me off because I couldn't do the job." So I go in the dispensary. Well, they put me on SIP, so that saved me until a couple of days, I don't know. I would have been laid off Friday. They had another layoff, they knew it, it was just they were going to show me they were going to lay me off. So Bill Nugent told me to go to Bernie Parrish, and I went and --

And Bernie Parrish was?

The chairman of the civil rights. He was the staff of civil rights. They said “You know, she's a nut,” but I went down to the EEOC, and they said to me you need to go to the NLRB, I don't think your union is helping you, and I said, "Oh, I couldn't go against the union."

And it's funny, because Bernie Parrish's dad was real active in the steelworkers civil rights suit.

Well see, that's where, Bill, and I noticed this when I was the chairman of the civil rights, some of the things with the girls, they went into expediting positions. Now I know that the expediter in our shop was a male, and he had unlimited overtime. Now when these girls had it, it happened to be a white girl, and I went to Everett Hawkins, he was for 9116 then, of course I forget all, but I said, " Everett , they are discriminating against her, all the men." He says, "Don't start that word, I don't want to hear that word," and this is what made me angry because I remember a black girl calling up about changing her schedule or vacation or something, and the foreman says, "Oh, I don't have time to talk about this shit." Well, they wanted to file this big suit, and it made me mad because you don't want to be divided, but they couldn't see what they were doing, you know. I mean we were in the same place they were, and I mean when I got in the mill, most of the times the black men were the nicest because they knew what you were going through, but the union, when you got to the union, you didn't find that. And people knew about it, but I went downtown because I didn't know all the procedures and everything, and I went downtown, but I wrote letters to Lynn Williams [President of The Steelworkers International].

And downtown is what?

EEOC.

Let's go through what happened with Bernie Parrish.

I wrote letters I think to Mr. Parrish. I think I just threw them away, I will look and see if I can find them there, but I wrote to him, and I went up to Dave Wilson and I told Dave.

And Dave Wilson was?

Dave Wilson was our [District] director at the time.

Did you go to any of the local officers first?

I belonged to 2610 at that time, and it was Walter Scott, and I'm trying to think who was -- GI Johnson was our civil rights man. He knew about it. I mean people knew about it because it was like talked about, and I can't remember all the procedures, but after I got involved in the union, I realized what I done wrong. I didn't go and -- I didn't make that shop steward file a grievance and stuff. I went downtown, and at that time -- it wasn't on Center Place , it was somewhere else, right off of Franklin I think it was, and I went down there and I talked to an investigator, I think it was a Mr. Blue I talked to an intake worker and it was turned over to a Mr. Blue. And so they came and they investigated, and the Bethlehem Steel said that everybody coming in that department that they started at a certain date, they named a certain date, that everyone coming in there was required to climb, because a lineman is an apprenticeship program, you don't just go in there and become a lineman. So I thought well, okay, if they didn't ask me to do anything more than anybody else. So I was talking to Bob Arrowwood, and he was in my department then. Of course I was laid off, they were working, and he said, "Me and Melvin were over there after that and we were there for six months." He said, "We never climbed." He said, "In fact, they kept saying to Melvin hey, if you don't shape up, we are going to make you put them hooks on." So I called back downtown to these people and I told them, and they talked to Melvin and I think Bob and Joe Reichenbach, and they found out that the story was different. So anyway, EEOC ruled in my favor. Of course Bethlehem Steel filed an appeal.

And how long did this take?

Oh, it took years.

And were you laid off while this was going on or on SIP?

I was laid off, I can't remember when, because see, Bill, I would bump in, I would bump back in, I would go anywhere, because that's where I went to work over at the BOF and stuff. I would bump in because I needed my benefits and stuff for the kids, so I don't really know. I didn't stay out there until they called me. I would come back in. But anyway, Bethlehem Steel was found guilty, and of course they filed their appeal. Now, I never went to any other hearing, and then it came back that they were not guilty, that there was another woman that was in that department who climbed the pole and I could not climb the pole, and that was not true and Bernie Parrish knew that wasn't. She was a black lady, and he knew that was not true. It was two girls were hired off the street for the apprenticeship program. One was a wireman and one was a lineman at the time, and for some reason -- I don't know if they stayed with the company, but I do know that the black girl could not climb the pole, because the guys told me that she didn't, and when I went up to the union, I went up to Walter Scott and them and said well, tell me what is this name, who is this girl. Nobody -- but you know what I found out later? Bernie Parrish filed a discrimination lawsuit for that girl in the line gang. This is like I said about this separate, which I thing has hurt -- started hurting the union, because I think like I said when I went in there, when I would get into areas that the women weren't in, the black men were the ones that helped you the most because they knew what it was like, but it was our union, and like other black people aren't going to go against GI Johnson or Bernie Parrish or anything and say hey, what do you mean, you know, and I found out a lot of times, Bill, for the average person like me, you don't know and they don't give you help, and that's where I fought the union, because I figured I pay my dues for you to help me. You are kind of like a lawyer to me, and I remember -- I will show you one thing. When I went to the civil rights the first time, there was this guy that got hurt on the job, and he had taken -- he was a maintenance tech and he had taken every test. He worked over -- he was in mobile equipment maintenance, and he had gotten hurt, a tire blew up on him and it fractured his leg and his leg was stiff, he couldn't straighten his one leg, and he could do everything else with some reasonable accommodations. He would have to have maybe a little crane or somebody to come over just give him a hand to put stuff on the table. They wouldn't give him his job back, they wouldn't give him a disability. Now of course his lawyer got him a disability, but he wanted to work because he needed the benefits. He was only I think 47 years old, but he had 20 years I think, 27 years, and he went to people and nobody would do anything, and he came to me, and this was -- I had just came back from a conference on Americans with Disabilities, and so I called their Washington hotline and told them. I said this guy -- he has tested. Normally they will say oh, she was grandfathered in or he was grandfathered in, he can't do it. This guy tested and passed anything, and he was willing to take anything for them to let him back, and they wouldn't let him back to work. So I even went to an attorney downstairs [to the office of Peter G. Angelos, who rented the second floor of the Local 2610 hall for many years] and talked to the attorney down there. Do you know what he told me? “Are you trying to get yourself fired? You are going to get yourself in trouble.” I said, "For what?" “Because that guy's attorney told him I can't get your job back, they won't give you disability, it's up to your union.” So when I called this Americans with Disabilities, the guy told me get a pencil and piece of paper. He said you have to write this exact wording that I am telling you, and I wrote the letter exactly like he told me, and we sent it in, and they gave him a disability pension with Bethlehem Steel. So he got his, and he came and he had -- his girlfriend had a surprise retirement party for him, and she called me. She didn't know me or anything, and she asked me if I would come. She said nobody is going to tell him that you are coming she said, and so I came over, and his mother and father, one of them was in a wheelchair and they cried when they seen me for helping him, and he was so happy, and I went -- after I retired I joined the Silhouettes, and the lady working there, you know you start talking, her husband worked at Bethlehem Steel and we were talking, and she knew this guy, and she said oh, we're in the same club and she told him, and he sent me a dozen red roses, but here's what he gave me, these balls. [displays a package of two brass balls} He's the only one at Bethlehem Steel, that's what he gave me for helping him. I couldn't get over it, and that attorney down -- Peter Angelos, Richard Dickson, whatever his name is, I went to him, Bill, about my hands, about my shoulders, and he would tell me nothing, and this guy that worked at my department doing the same job as I did, he went over there and he told him oh, yeah, that's job related and they filed for -- Pete got job related on carpal tunnel and stuff on his hands, he is telling me that, and I went to him the last time before I retired. I went to him because I can't remember what was going on. Maybe it was when I had my thumb operated on, and he is sitting there and I said, "I don't know why I am telling you this," and he says, "Why do you say that?" I said, "Because you look like you could just puke." I mean that's what he did. I mean he was looking at me like disgust, and I told him, I said, "You look like you could just puke." I hate to use those words, so I got up and I left, and when I had -- I was off, had to have my shoulders operated on and my hand, and Social Security gave me a disability. I mean I only filed it because I had to. I was out over a year.

How did you hurt your shoulders and your hand?

I think from like in refrigeration I would have to carry the freon bottles and everything, and they weighed 30 pounds. I would put them up on my shoulders because it was easier to go up the steps. We have to climb up the steps in the cranes and everything, and then when I got into this new job, which was the best job I loved since I have been down there, but it was hard, everything --

What was the job?

That was -- where the heck was I? Motor repair. What was I? Isn't that awful? But I built the wheel assemblies and stuff for the overhead cranes and the magnets and everything for that, put in new bearings and stuff, but everything was so heavy that a lot of times we only had the one crane, and if the crane was not -- you know, being held up, I would just take my shoulders like and push stuff over, and I had this shoulder operated on twice and this one done twice, and I had like some kind of little round thing put in my thumb, and my shoulders still bother me, and I haven't worked since 2001, but if Social Security hadn't gave me a disability, I probably would still be down there with my SIP every year or something with this shoulder, but I would have still been working because I would have like to have that 50 grand. Now I don't know what else to go on to say.

Well, how did you deal as a single parent with shift work?

Well, when I first started when I had shift work I was married and then --

And you were living here in Essex ?

Yeah, I lived across from Salvos, and then we bought this house when this development was first built in '71. Moved in here in February '71, and I started at Bethlehem Steel in April of '71. But my kids when my husband and I broke up, I had six children, I had three by my first marriage, three by my second marriage, and when we broke up, my first husband, he could have cared less, he has never ever seen his kids or could care less, and my husband -- we always told him he could, but my second husband loved his children, and I knew I couldn't take care of six kids. I mean I knew I couldn't, so we agreed that he would take those three, I would keep these, and then in the summer when I had my vacation the children would come up with me for those two weeks, so that went on like that. But right after him and I broke up, my older boys were getting ready in the teenage years, and he was very strict on them, and of course I would come home and I would go to bed. I mean they would be sitting here, everything would be fine, and I would wake up three o'clock in the morning with the police banging on the door because everybody would be coming in to my house because I was asleep and all or I was working, and it was -- I could never go through it again. I mean it was very, very hard times. I mean I just said the police were out at somebody else's house a couple of weeks ago, and I was out on the porch and I said to the next door neighbor, I said, "Whew, I can remember the years when they were always here." I said whenever you seen the police, it was here, and then my son, my oldest son committed suicide. I got laid off in September of '82, and he committed suicide in December 10th of '82, and he had -- his girlfriend was pregnant and my granddaughter was born six months after my son died to the very day, and she just passed away October 23rd. She had cerebral palsy, and she had gotten a cold, and her mother, her mother was so good -- really took good care of her, and she would stay in the room with her when she would get sick, and Mary woke up, she was gasping for breath. She called the paramedics, and they lost her twice before they got her to the hospital, and then at the hospital and she had been with -- she wasn't brain dead because they took her off the respirator, she could breathe, but she had so much brain damage that she would never wake up or have -- she would have to be tube fed and all. So her poor mother, they told her you know why we are telling you this, and she said yes. Oh, God, Bill, it was awful because she crawled in that bed, she loved that little girl, and I guess it was maybe two hours after that the doctor came in, he said, "I think the Lord is making the decision for you," because her organs started shutting down, and he told Mary, he said, "By law we have to go there and give her needles" and stuff like that to resuscitate her and Mary said no, she said she just didn't want to be in there, and they said well, it will take a couple of hours. So that's what happened, she passed away October 23rd. But I mean it was like -- now I know why God has you have children when you are young, because if I had them now when you get older, things -- you look at things different. I mean now do you think I would put up with that shit at Bethlehem Steel? No way. But at that time it's like oh, my God, I've got to go to work, I've got to do this, and I mean when my husband left here he took everything, he took everything. We had a very, very violent relationship, and that's why I got out because it was getting really -- and the only thing -- I mean I could take pretty much take care of myself, but I would still get the shit beat out of me, you know, so when we decided to break up, I said look -- I was afraid to come around him. I said when you move out, I will come back in, and I had my neighbor, I said let me know when I can come in, and she said the moving people were out and the guy, one of the moving men -- because she asked if they wanted some iced tea, it was in the summer, and he said what that man is doing to that house is a shame. So when I called her, she called me when they were gone and I said, "Well, I will have to come back and clean it." She said, "Well, Mary, I'm going to tell you it's not going to be hard because he took everything." Bill, he took switches off the light switch to be nasty, took my stove, my refrigerator, and I said well, what's the sense, I couldn't get upset or anything because there wasn't anything I could do, but I went to take a bath and there wasn't any hot water, and I said if I go downstairs and he took the furnace, I'm really going to be pissed. What it was, when they took the stove, they had to cut the gas off, so I didn't have hot water for the heater, but I made it. Like I was just talking to my daughter yesterday, because she's living in Las Vegas , and I always wanted her -- I didn't try to get her down to the Point because I know how dangerous it was down there, and especially think now with more young girls because they are really -- I knew some of these young girls would come in that they just hired and they would have them feeding out there on those lines, and Bill, when I got there, those men had to have fifteen years or something to get on those lines. I mean I can remember a girl coming in there crying because she was scared to death. She wanted to work, she was willing to do anything, but she didn't like that because it scared her to death, and I didn't push my daughter, but I was telling her come on, Stace, you know she was driving a limo, she was driving a cab. I said everybody has got to work. I said you are going to find very, very few people that like what they do. I said I knew I had to work and I was going to work where the money was, and I said, "And look, I've got a good pension, I have good Social Security, I can do what I want." I would like more, I lost 300 when they did that and the benefits, but I said some women I know live on $800 a month, and that's what I tell my daughter-in-laws and all them. Bill, I can remember when I would be working, because I was young like everybody else and we would stop on North Point Road , and sometimes we would go -- instead of going home, we would go for breakfast and go to work. Now that would kill you, but I can remember some of my friends would be laughing because they didn't work, they would laugh at me ha-ha, you've got to go to work, but whose got the last laugh now? And when you are old, I don't know what I would do at this age not being able to have anything that I enjoy.

Let's go back to how you got involved in the union.

Well, I got involved in the union through Sandy Wright, because when things would happen to me over in refrigeration, and this is like where -- Sandy is a very, very smart girl --

And what year would this be?

I think it was in '91 or '93. It was when I went over --

So you had been there almost 20 years?

I had been there, yeah, 20 years.

You started in '71.

I started in '71 years, yeah, so I had been there about 20 years. When I would go through these things, guys would take me, "Mary, do you know Sandy Wright? Go talk to Sandy Wright." Well, it was again that I'm going to take care of myself, you know, and I could be used as long as they are not the only one being treated bad, but anyway, Dave Wilson was married to Sandy 's cousin.

Dee ?

No, not Dee. The one -- the big lady.

I don't think I know her.

You knew who he was married to a long time.

That was before I was here.

She was very involved in the union.

When I met him he was married to Dee .

Well, see, I started working with Dee , and that's why Dee and I got along really good because Dee and I, we worked over in the tin mill, and Dee knew I worked, worked hard and she worked -- we worked on pulling scrap and all that, but Marie Wilson, that's who Dave was married to, Marianne Wilson, but anyway I went up to the union -- no, Jimmy Harmon came back and gave me -- it was at a conference in Atlantic City, a civil rights conference, and he gave me the little brochures and all that, and it had about the last women of steel. So Sandy and I decided we would go up and talk to Dave. So he said “yeah,” we wanted to go, so it was me and Sandy and it was a black lady, I can't remember her name, she lived on Elwood, she worked at one of the other places that shut down, and a lady from 2609. We went up to Boston , Cape Cod or somewhere up that way, and that was the first that I had ever -- I had never heard of CLUW [The Coalition of Labor Union Women], never ever heard of CLUW, and I thought the CLUW was more -- I liked it better for the women.

Up until '91, were there any women who were really officers of the union or active?

In 2610, no. Like I said 2609 is a whole different ball game, whole different ball game than 2610. No, not that I know of. I think maybe Sue Guido, but I never even knew she was any of this until when I went over there, there were papers laying around. The civil rights committee used to be about fifteen people, and that's where I seen her, but so far as ever any other woman, no.

So what happened at the conference?

So Dave Wilson gave me the opportunity to go, and I went to that conference there in Boston I think it was, Massachusetts somewhere, and then we went to a convention in Las Vegas , and I think that was in '93, and I was elected as a delegate for the steelworkers from the District 8, because I think it was like three of us, three delegates, and I mean they had the vice-president -- yeah, I don't know, I was elected delegate. So every time anything involved in CLUW I was to go, and I was chairman of their women and nontraditional jobs committee, and we put on a lot of things, and one of our conventions out -- the last one I went to in Las Vegas we had -- remember What's My Line? It was me and it was two other girls, and we were dressed like card hats and stuff like that. Instead of having the audience ask me, because it would be too -- it was too hard, we had about five people behind us and the job description was -- I think it was my job -- no, it wasn't my job, it was another girl's job, I can't remember. But anyway, they were asking us -- no, it was my job and they were asking questions and then they voted, and I don't think anybody got it right, because then we had to stand up and say it, and the one girl was a baggage handler and the other girl was a communication worker I think it was, but we were describing the job, what you would do on my job, and once we went to Philadelphia we had a workshop where we had Karen -- I forget Karen's last name. She was an electrician, and we made little switches and stuff like that, and they told women how to make the telephones, move their jacks and things like that, and it was nice.

Did you find women from other industries were having the same problems you had?

Yes, very much, and especially some of the new trades where the women started getting into, some of the building trades, and a lot of it was the same stuff. You know people feel sorry for you and all, but people don't like to stand up. There's very few that want to -- they see what you are going through and they don't want to put themselves through it, and I never blamed anybody for that because I knew it, I knew. When I was in refrigeration, Bill, almost every damn day I would either cry at work or cry coming home, and I would say to Bob Arrowwood I shouldn't have to do this, and I would go to my superintendent, and I remember one time with the shop steward, I went over there and I laid my head down, and I don't cuss, but I came out with some very, very foul language, laid my head, I was just sobbing. I said you have got to do something with that blankety blankety foreman. I mean they knew what he was doing to me, and the shop steward was there, and I remember the one that -- you know how you keep getting elected and elected, and the only time you see them is election time. He was very well aware, and one of the new shop stewards one time--the older one was on vacation and this guy from electrical construction came, and I forget what the problem was at that time, but when he went in there the foreman starts talking awful about me to him, and he said, "Wait a minute, wait a minute, I'm her union rep, do you realize what you are saying to me?" But he had gotten away with it.

Who was that new steward, do you remember who it was?

That was Larry Burke. He only -- I only think he ran that one time because nobody did anything, Bill. It's unfortunate to say, but they didn't. It was like if I tell you what your rights are, I've got to work and do my job, and that's sad, it's really sad.

Did you ever have meetings with other women at the plant to try and --

I tried to get women involved in the women at steel. I don't know if I turn people off, I really don't, because I would take stuff all around. I just don't know why I couldn't get the women involved.

Do you think it was because they were just scared?

I don't know. I got Flo. I'm the one who got Flo, and I took -- I see Gail Fleming, she was in the paper where she is going to CLUW and stuff now. I got Gail and all. Now Flo did things. Gail was pretty much ready to get out of work, but I mean -- and then see, too, Bill, a lot of times women -- I could do what I did in the later years because I didn't have a husband. A lot of husbands aren't -- they just aren't understanding, and now I'm sure it's got to be harder because how can you buy a house? I know my son and his wife, they are both working, and I mean he's got enough problems. I'm sure if she came home crying all the time he would be quit the damn job and go somewhere else, so that creates a problem. I just wish that there would be something that if somebody had a problem like that, people that knew what it was like could go to somebody -- I don't know if it would be like an attorney or if it would be an arbitrator or what, who -- I mean I don't know how to explain it, help them, because you shouldn't have to work like that. Luckily we didn't have outhouses emptied on us and stuff like that, but I mean when the girls went to the coke ovens, I mean there were many a girl, Bill could tell you, they come around the corner and the guy was going to the bathroom, because a lot of times they really forgot, too, that the women worked there. I remember one in the coal fields, a lot of the girls worked in the coal fields, and I remember this one girl, she was so funny, and our bathroom in the coke oven had been a men's bathroom, so when we came there they had it divided in half. Well, OSHA came down because it only had two doors. Now it was just one and one, so they had to make a door in the back, and it was months and months, you know, we had the holes knocked out, you had the tarp laying down. I remember this girl Libby, she went -- everybody would take their clothes in the shower with them because they had the one big shower, and Libby says I'm not taking my clothes in there any more. She said if they haven't seen a woman by now, tough shit, but it was so funny because when we first moved in, they didn't brick all the way to the top, and we caught where the guys were looking in there. It was hysterical because it was like school kids, and then we had windows and there was no air conditioner or anything, so in the summer we would open the windows and we were across from Kohl Chemical, and that was a couple stories high, and after awhile some of us happened to notice there's all these men standing on the railing, they could look right into the bathrooms, so it was funny. And this girl Libby after we discovered that, they had a men's bathroom down in the coal field, so that the girls went over on this belt line and they were standing up there. Well, you should have heard the stink when those men because the women when they caught -- then the woman started ha-ha and it was hysterical because when it was us, it was like oh, God, guys will be guys, but with them it was a whole different story. It was funny, and I worked on the belt lines like how that girl did in there.

You've been talking about the movie, this is North Country, and what was your -- what got you to see it?

Because one of the girls on my committee was a miner, her name was Bonnie something, but she was from I think Pennsylvania , the mines there, and I think she got involved in the union kind of to get out of that, because she would tell us some of the stories that happened in the bathrooms and stuff, and she didn't really -- she didn't come to that many meetings after I became involved, because a lot of places were small and it cost -- when they have these conventions, except for Vegas, these hotels are outrageous, the prices and all, but I knew -- I mean if they had the women in the building trades, you are going to find the same thing. But now they have a young girl that was in electrical construction. Now I talked to her -- I don't think -- if she had any trouble with any of the men, she never said anything, and I asked her, and it was because they hired a girl in electrical construction, they hired an ironworker and they hired a maintenance tech, and the ironworker, she could pretty much I think take care of herself, because I had said something to the little girl, the electrician, and she had met her like when they went on the stadiums or different jobs for the locals before they got hired there. She said oh, Priscilla can take care of herself, but Priscilla ended up I think drinking or doing drugs or something and not showing up and she ended up losing her job, but Sandy -- the guys, I never heard any of the guys say anything bad about her. They said that she was really a good worker, and she could worker harder than some of the men. She was a very tiny small girl, but she never ever said she had any problems, and it didn't seem like over there -- but see with her it was at this time she was about the same age as the new men coming in, and they all were learning and she knew what she was doing, so I think it was a little different than us women being -- I was like 31 when I started being thrown in there with people that didn't want you there and weren't going to show you, because that's how the black men, they wouldn't show them anything, and so I think it's a little different, because the other girl, the maintenance tech I think she could pretty much take care of herself, and she never really complained about it either.

So you saw the movie. What did the movie bring back for you?

Oh, I'm so glad you didn't come that day, Bill. I called my brother, I said Bill Barry from the college is going to come talk to me about me working at Bethlehem Steel. I said I just finished watching that North Country . I said boy, am I glad he is not here, because it sure has got me pissed off. I said it brought back memories, and I mean I always cry some of the stuff because I can remember one time, Bill, and my problem was my father and my mother, they didn't have much of an education. My father was a truck driver. They had seven kids, and my father always taught us and all my kids were was whatever you do, go out and work, don't ask nobody for nothing, don't take nothing from anybody you don't know, so that is how I always wanted to work, and I always -- if I couldn't do the heaviest kind of stuff, I tried to say well, I will pick up this for you and even it out, and it was just so hard for me to see that this didn't make a shit, they did not care and I'm talking about superintendents. I went over about this Mr. Hooth, and the superintendent I had now was gone, and I mean I was crying so bad that you know you are trying -- and snot flew out of my nose, that's how upset I was. You know what he said to me? "Get out of here, get out of here and get control of yourself." And I mean it was like -- you know what I mean? It was just awful, awful. And like I said would it be different now? But you see that's how supervision felt for us then. I mean not all of them did, but now it's like that's how all companies are feeling about their people. You don't care. My son was a supervisor, operation superintendent over at Medical Waste over on the other side of the Key bridge, and this one guy was really having financial problems, and he came to my son, and of course my son was in the maintenance -- that's what it was, maintenance guy, and he went to the big boss who would have had to okay it. The guy wanted his vacation, his money and not take the vacation, and Michael said here this guy said -- it wasn't that he was asking for a loan. He said, "Mom, he couldn't have cared less, he didn't care about what that guy wanted or anything," no. Then everybody would want to do it, but see my son, he couldn't -- he drives a truck because he couldn't be -- my son got in trouble and he was in prison and he was sentenced to seven years, but he served like three years, and he was married and he bought a house in Dundalk , and what it was he was stone drunk. I had been down his house that morning, I was going to a union meeting, and he worked up in Cockeysville for Maryland Specialty Wire, and he was on the 11:00 to 7:00 shift and he had just gotten home, and I came over there and I said, "Come on, Mike, let's go out and get something to eat for breakfast. I want to go to the union meeting later," and he said, "Oh, mom, I'm so tired," because he had worked the 3:00 to 7:00 and the 11:00 to 7:00, and so I said okay. So I'm getting ready to go, and I'm not one of these mothers that it's this guy's fault, but this guy was -- he is from the neighborhood, and whenever the shit would always go downhill, he was always in the middle of, but he never got in any trouble, but he was always the one like this. So he came over and he said to Mike, "Come on, let's go out and drink." So they go out and they drink, they got plastered and they got in a fight with two guys, and my son goes away to jail because he had been in trouble as a juvenile. So anyway in order to come out, they try to see if he got a job program and all, and this Dave Fenwick, who was in refrigeration, the only guy that stood up for me, he's dead now, he said to me, "Mary, I've got a friend that works at the one Medical Waste that was a steelworker. He said he would hire Mike." So Mike got out and he went over there and went to work. Well, he was such a good worker. He belonged to -- it was BFI and they had what they call a chairman's club, and the first year he worked there, Bill, he was named to the chairman's club, and this is something that -- here's what it is. Only five people or something out of this company. But anyway, he got all these pictures. This is how many people were up and only five were chosen and he was chosen the first year.

Good for him.

But he couldn't do it, because he was brought up by work, and he was a supervisor and he would tell the guys to do something and they would say they didn't know, and instead of Michael saying okay, here, give me the wrench -- he would go to the job, and after awhile they seen that, and then the company, too, when these -- whatever they -- the incinerators would have to be relined, he would have to stay there around the clock because you would have to turn up so many degrees, and it just got -- he couldn't take it because then they started hiring people that didn't want to work, would bring their kids there in this medical waste place, said they couldn't get a babysitter, and he just started drinking, so he said he had to get away. So he got his own truck and he says he is better like that, but he made good money, but he just couldn't handle that. But that's the story of my life, all these things.

So you left Sparrows Point in 2001?

I went out, I had my shoulder operated. I officially retired I think it was May of 2003.

Right before the end?

Right before the end.

And what was it like at the end of Bethlehem Steel? How did you guys feel?

Well, see, I wasn't there, I didn't even go back for my retirement or anything because I had been off for two years with my shoulders. I went to those meetings, and I mean I retired -- well, when I got the disability at Bethlehem Steel, I had to pay them money back because they were paying me sick money, so that's when I talked to Jim Hubert, and he asked me how much time I had and he didn't know, I don't think he knew all this was going to come down then either, you know, and I had 31 and a half years. So I thought I was getting $1,800 a month pension and $1,500 in Social Security, boy, this is great. So I thought well, yeah, they are paying my medical, and that's how come I retired. If I had known that the bucket was going to fall out, I would have tried to go back to work and work, and said God, please can't you say I tried again or something. I don't regret leaving because I lived for that day. I hated getting up, and I wanted to work the day light so I had to sacrifice getting up, but I always said I don't care if I don't do anything, it's better than being there, I don't care, because since I have been out of there, Bill, I haven't had a cold, and I was getting lung infections. The last year I was at the hospital all the time because I couldn't breathe. They would have to give me those treatments where I would have to breathe that mist in and everything. Since I have been out of there I haven't had that, but I have lung problems from there, but I haven't had colds and all like I was getting.

So did you lose some of your pension?

I lost 300 and some dollars a month.

Plus your insurance?

Plus my insurance. I had kept my insurance, I was paying -- it went from $84 to $534 a month, so I paid that because I always had Blue Cross and I always liked it and I wasn't 65 yet. So then when we got the government help, I only had to pay $187. So because I went out on disability, my disability -- I got Medicare earlier than I would have. I think I got it when I was 64, because I think you have to be out two years or something, so when I got that, then I lost the other, so my insurance went up to $295 a month, which I still paid. And then come December I got a letter that the insurance was going up again, so I called and it went up to $428, and I said well, enough is enough. So that's when I went and I got the Medigap Blue Cross Blue Shield Maryland , it's $143 a month I think it is.

And the rest you are on Medicare?

Yes.

You were talking about your kids. One of the questions we always ask people is whether they would have had their kids go to work down there.

It would depend on -- my daughters, I would have to know where they were going to go to work, because on the steel side -- my daughters are frilly frilly, you know I don't think -- but she's got a mouth, but I don't -- she probably could because she's strong, stronger than what she appears to be, but it's dangerous. My one son by my second husband, he was going to go there, was going to work during the summer. He's a design engineer for Nissan up in Detroit, and he was going to work there during the summer, but he was still in college and he was getting ready to graduate, and he had a hernia so he couldn't. Had to get that operated on while he was still under his dad's insurance, and I'm kind of glad because he is such a smart boy. If something would have happened to him, it would have been terrible, but I was so glad. But Carolyn Holt -- do you remember Carolyn Holt?

No. I remember the name.

She was president of Local 9116 at first. She was a pistol. She was really a good union --

She probably was the first woman who was an officer?

Yes, she was.

And what year was that?

I really don't know. It was right after they won that lawsuit I think, and see --

Just for the people that are watching this, Local 9116 covered what jobs?

That covered your clerks and your expediters, more or less the people that worked in the office. I mean they were out in the mills, the expediters and stuff, so it wasn't like in production.

The local that Flo was in?

Yes. And they had won a lawsuit, because they found out that the men and the women were doing the same thing and they were paying the men a lot more money for the same thing, and that was in I think the '80s, you know, so that's what I'm saying. When I seen this movie, it was like -- but like I told you, I bet you could go to any apprenticeship place or any job site that's got the women and I'm sure they have stories, too.

What do you think is going to happen with the Sparrows Point plant?

Bill, I don't know. I know that when I talked to the guys, they made more money than they have ever made, and at first the profit sharing and everything, they got the profit sharing checks, and I do know that when -- I do think that a big part of their problem was management. I mean they had five bosses for four workers and then --

And they were all relatives?

Yeah, and the stealing. I mean come on. You've got to be a moron. See people would report, nothing would be done, but that's the only thing that makes me angry is that the salary people got more benefits than we did and they are the reason that the place has went under. I don't know. I don't like all these foreign countries taking over our manufacturing. Like my son and I were talking or my daughter, I said let me see if I know some unions out there in Vegas, maybe you can get into something, and she said, "Mom, out here in Vegas, believe me if you want to work, you are going to work." She said that's the place for the jobs, but the traffic is just -- it's just boomed, and she said you don't want to work in Vegas if you don't have a job she said because there are jobs, but she said there's not manufacturing but the housing industry and all that. But one thing I seen out there -- now they have to go get health certificates, they have to apply -- they have to go through all kinds of stuff to get a job as a waitress, and when I was out at my friend Mike's house last year, I was flipping through the TV and the local channel, it had people who were denied this -- whatever this permit is to work. You have to be checked for hepatitis. I imagine that's probably just in the --

Food handler.

Food, but all of these things, and my daughter told me now it's really bad because they go back ten years on your employment, plus they are checking all your credit. If you've got bad credit, they are not hiring you, and I mean I look at the kids nowadays and I don't -- half of them don't know the stuff that I can just still remember from school let alone what I forgot, and I can't understand what's going on, where are they going to get these jobs.

Let's ask the big question. How do you win at bingo?

I win big sometimes, most of the time. I don't know. Playing 36 cards at a time.

Is that what you do?

Yeah.

I know when I had you in class we always used to talk, you were a little football and basketball and that kind of stuff, so you moved up to bingo?

No, I always played bingo. I played bingo -- well, my oldest son would be 46 this year, and I started playing bingo before he was born, and of course then I could only go once a week, and of course when I worked I couldn't go except on the weekends.

And where would you go; up on Boulevard?

I started like over in Towson down in that area, and I would go wherever I was living, but now I go down in Dundalk , but with Las Vegas, see I always saved -- I would always have $200 every month taken out of my pay and put in my Christmas club, and I still do that, and that's the only money that I take when I go to gamble. I mean I would like to take $5,000 or something. I mean I have it to take, but no, I'm not going to. That's my friend Mike, he moved to Vegas, he will be 82 in August, and he came back, he's got a sister here and she's got Alzheimer's, and when I went out last October and came back in November, he came back with me. He was going to stay between my house, her house and his nieces and nephews, and by the end of December I had to get on the Internet and get him a ticket back. He went back January the 6th, said he couldn't stand it, it's too boring, and I mean he's on a fixed income, he doesn't have a lot of money, but he goes twice a day. He knows when they have -- sometimes they pay triple pay and he goes on them, and then they have like these hot balls. When the hot ball gets to 4 or $5,000, you go there, and they cater to them, they cater to the natives out there, and like he gets three free nights at the hotel and a slot tournament free, and he lives there, so he just goes on down, and I like it out there. I'm hoping, because I'm a person that I have to have the air conditioner on because I really don't know -- but I say what do I do? I go from my air- conditioned house to my air-conditioned car to the air-conditioned casino. I just decided that it's a big move for me really because my family is here, I love my doctor, and those are the things that really have me -- is this really what you want to do. My son, you know I have one child here in Maryland , he lives in Conowingo, and he told me “Mom, if that's what you want to do, you always like to go out there, go.” And my other kids, they said “don't save no house for us, go and enjoy yourself,” and I think if I've got 20 years, hey, I'm really going to be lucky, why not go where I enjoy myself.

All right. Any other memories of your years at the Point? If somebody said to you what was it like?

I can't describe -- I mean it was interesting. It had its good times, it had its sad times, but overall I think other than that specific area, I can't say -- and the girls, you know. It was so much fun when they had all the women, when they had the coke ovens, it was so much fun to see all the women down there working in the coal field. Those girls would come in from these coal fields and they would be -- we all wore long underwear and then you had your dungarees, and then you had those uniforms on, but they had to do that because the cold gusts and they would come in like that, and they would have -- their backs would be soot and they would have to wash each other's back and stuff because you couldn't get all that soot, and I can remember when we would walk out, they had the quencher, and when you first went there, because I ruined some clothes until I realized you walk out and the quencher, they would quench that coat and make it cold with water, and it would have these little black dots. Now if you didn't touch them and they dried, they would blow off, but at first you go like this, and it was all streaks and it wouldn't come out. And they used to have a restaurant down there, and it was nice, it was nice. I mean I didn't like swing shift, but when I went into the labor gang and it wasn't the best of money, and then I went into -- I was just sweeping in the machine shop I think they call it, the coke ovens down there in the maintenance shop and that was pretty nice. Most of the time I was the only girl around. So when I went to refrigeration, the guy at the employment office said that was the best job but the worst boss, he is deceased now. His name was Larry Reece, and Bill, he would holler at you, but if anybody else said anything about his workers, he would jump on them like I don't know what. Always took up for his workers, and we were working over one of the hot strip mills, and the mechanic asked me to go back and get his lunch because it was lunchtime, and he says pick me up a Coke at Servomation, so I'm driving the truck, I'm coming down to go back to the job, and the boss pulls up, I'm stopped, and he says, "Where have you been?" I said, "I went up to Servomation, got a Coke." He said, "If I ever catch your ass driving that truck anywhere else" -- I mean I was like, and when I went back and told the guy, he said, "Mary, he don't mean anything by it." He said that's how he is, and like the next day he says to me, "Hey, Mary, grab that truck and go up to Servomation, and get me" -- he let me know, and that's how he was. But one time in the summer comfort cooling always came last as far as refrigeration, and this one mill, the office kept calling up, their air conditioner was making noise, it was cold, but they said it kept making noise and all. After about the fourth call, he gets out, goes out, gets in his car, drives over there, Bill, walks in the office, turns it off, said, "Ain't making any noise now; is it? Out he goes, but he passed away, but that's what everybody said, you didn't dare say anything to him about his employees, but the ones that took over after him they talk about their employees like dogs, but he always took up for his men.

Any other last memories?

No. The only thing, yes, that I do regret is like I said most of the time I worked down there I worked with all men, I was the only girl and I had a lot of good friends, but when I retired, that's the bad part about it is all my friends were men. Their wives don't want you to come over, and a lot of them even when you see them it's like hi, and of course I know how, and that's the only bad thing because I don't really have -- I never really formed good relationships with women. I always did get along better with men. I did volunteer work for my doctor for awhile, and her little receptionist was getting married, and that's why she wanted me in there so I could fill in for the two weeks where she was on her honeymoon. Well, I know how she's young, she was excited about her wedding and all, and I said to my mom I'm not interested in that shit. I said they talk about putting a coupling on that got stuck or something like this, but I don't -- women can't understand, but I just don't like to hear, but that's the only thing I regret, because like I said I don't have -- like my friend Mike, I met him at the bingo hall, and we started traveling together because you had to pay single supplement. He had asked me would I mind sharing a room. I said I work with all guys, it didn't bother me. I will flip you over across that room if you bug me, but we have been friends, but we couldn't live together. I wish we could, because he bought a doublewide mobile that's bigger than this house, it's longer, way longer than here, and it's too big. He wanted to sell it to me, but he wants to sell it too much, because he got all new carpet and all and all the furniture, and I don't like his furniture. It's beautiful, but it's not me with my dog. But I said I wish him and I could live together because it would be so much cheaper, but we are like Felix and Alex, I walk in a room, and I don't know what I do, I don't have to do nothing, Bill, but I've got it torn up. I had a friend who just passed away two years ago, she was 49. She was over in the hospice, and I was over there visiting her, and I'm sitting there and after awhile I said, "Bec?" She said, "Yeah?" I said, "What have I been doing?" She said, "What have you been doing? Nothing." I said, "I know. Why do I have this area tore up." I mean I did, I had Kleenexes here and books. I mean I don't know why I'm like that, and that's how -- when I go to his place, when I go to Vegas, I will stay with him for awhile, but I always go to the hotels two or three times. I can't stay the whole month with him because I have to go in my room and keep the door shut, I can't open the door, and I make my bed as soon as I get up, but it's not to his perfection.

All right. Are you ever in contact with Sandy Wright and some of the ones --

Sandy and I fell out. I don't want this on there. The only one I usually keep in touch with is Flo and Francis Almond. Another lady Kitty, she retired before I did. Her husband worked there, he retired so she had to retire, but no.