It is the 27th of April, 2006, and I am sitting here in the home of Lee Douglas and his wife, and we're going to talk about Lee's experiences down at Sparrows Point. Lee, tell us a little about you grew up in a Sparrows Point family?

Yes. My father was on the railroad down at Bethlehem Steel, and as a matter of fact it was a sad situation for my father, because he was working on the railroad and then he went into the mill and he was forced to retire because of -- well, at that time they call it clinker, a piece of clinker shot out of the furnace and struck him in the eye, and in hitting him in the eye the foreman allowed him to sit on the side, and he said to the foreman that he wanted to go to the doctor and see about it. So the foreman told him that he didn't want him to go to the doctor. So my father didn't go to the doctor, and about three or four days the eye had swole up on him, and the foreman told him that if you go to the doctor, we will run you away, that was the whole situation. We will run you away from here, and my father never did do anything about that eye until it turned white. That eye, he went blind in that eye. Never got a quarter or anything because back in then my father was afraid that he would get fired if he go beyond the foreman, and that's the way it was at that time.

What year was that; do you know?

Yes. That was 1938, '39 and '40, and my father worked at Sparrows Point, and my mother and I were down in Columbia , South Carolina , and we didn't come to Baltimore, my mother, we didn't come to Baltimore until 1946.

So your dad was from Columbia , South Carolina ?

He was from Columbia , South Carolina , also.

And when did he come up to Baltimore ?

He came up to Baltimore right at the war time or right around the war time.

The first world war or second?

No, no, second world war.

He didn't arrive until the second world war in the mid 1930's or so?

No, until '39, and he worked in the mills to provide for us. I got a lot of heartaches from the suffering that he did. We used to go through some tough stuff. I didn't really get involved until 1943. I went in the United States Marine Corps, I volunteered in the United States Marine Corps in 1943, had just finished going to heavy equipment school, and I volunteered in the Corps thinking that I would be able to use my education in heavy equipment in the National Youth Administration School down there, and when I got in there, there were discrimination, segregation at Montford Point, North Carolina , located in Jacksonville , North Carolina . We were three miles -- well, we were trained, the blacks in 1943, we were trained in a place called Camp LeJeune in the woods, the boondocks. The white marines was trained in Camp Lejeune three miles away. We were not able to function collectively together because of the race situation.

Let me back you up just a little bit. What was it like growing up in Columbia , South Carolina ?

Columbia was nice. I went to school in Columbia . I had no problems in Columbia because my mother, she worked. My mother worked on the railroad in Columbia , South Carolina . I'm talking about during the war.

What about before the war?

'40 and '41, discrimination was there, but you were taught to stay in your area, you know, and this kind of situation.

Was Columbia a farming area?

No. Columbia is the capital of South Carolina , and everything is open, the theatres were segregated, you know, and jobs and all of that, but other than that, you got along. As a matter of fact, that's where I volunteered in the United States Marines Corps from Columbia , South Carolina .

Well, did your dad hear about jobs up north, is that what made him move?

Well, my father had a brother living at 1710 Madison Avenue in Baltimore , Maryland , and my father came up -- he told him to come up, and my father came up and went on the railroad first, and the railroad out there rain, sleet or snow, it didn't rain, sleet or snow. So my father decided to go in the mill. He worked in the mill, and when my father lost the one eye, his thoughts were getting away. All of this was instilled in me. When I went in the Marine Corps, I went to Camp Lejeune , North Carolina , which is located in Jacksonville , North Carolina , and we went through a training that at that time there were a few blacks that were drill instructors. The highest a black could be at Montford Point , North Carolina , in the black Marine base was five stripes. Anything other than that was white. There were no officers there. When I finished my training in 1944 and went overseas, we left Panama and went to Guadalcanal . As a matter of fact, as we were going overseas we were on a ship with a little over 2,000 men. No food for the noon time. You get in the line in the morning and line at night, stayed in the line all day. The name of that ship will go down in the cemetery with me, the USS Sea Perch. It was sank on the way back from overseas and carried -- a lot went down. The USS Sea Perch, the boiler blew up on us in the Pacific Ocean , and we were left by ourselves, and I joined the church in the South Pacific, everybody joined the church who already joined the church before, this was 1944. We sat out there approximately four hours while them working on the boiler, and then we saw the white foam and we knew the Lord was still with us. We landed in Guadalcanal getting ready for an invasion we didn't know at that time. The invasion was, the D-Day was September the 15th, 1944. We was on Guadalcanal , we were training, we were snapping in, we didn't even understand why we were doing the vigorous training that we were doing, but we were getting ready to go to the invasion. At that time, I was in the ammunition company, the 7th ammunition company, all black. We were -- we did everything. I was in the heavy equipment, road graders, bulldozers, and our job or my job was once we landed, we make ammunition fields. We had to clear the grounds and then ammunition comes off the ship, all kind of ammunition comes off the ship. We lived in one end of the island, we weren't around any white because all the ammunition we dealt with we sent men to the ship, sometime I had to go, because we had -- if they didn't have a crane operator, I had to go to the ship, help to unload the ship, and then we brought all the ammunition back to the fields and stacked it up. The ammunition dump, which is what it was called was approximately four blocks and managed by all black, that was my outfit, 7th Ammunition, and we left Guadalcanal and went -- we arrived in Guadalcanal in June of '44, and we stayed there getting ready for the invasion of Heligoland Islands and the Pellilu group, and when we got there, they attached us. At that time you could only be attached -- black could not belong to the First Marine Division. So they attached us to the First Marine Division and we went in the invasion of Pellilu Islands collectively together. We wasn't -- we was supposed to go in D-Day, the first day. They assigned us -- the island, they did not look for the amount of death that was happening. They assigned us to the (inaudible) getting the -- we went out of LOCI, little ship barges and we had the nets, we gathered up the bodies and put them in there, nets, and then we brought them back and then the crane would bring them and they would put weights on them and sink them so that the ship propeller wouldn't cut them up, and when we went in it was -- we were looking forward to taking the island in five to six days, and it was three weeks before because we did not know exactly the intensity that the Japanese were built in and boxes that they had. We thought we was the only ship September the 15th, D-Day, and we were watching the explosion and the ships bombing and bombing, and we just knew when we went in that everything would be dead, but it was a lot of difference, a lot of difference. We left after the Pellilu Islands invasion. We went back to the black situation, and we went to Saipan and we stayed on Saipan . We were there when the President Franklin D. Roosevelt passed, and I didn't even believe that we would come back to the states. I thought it was all over, but the Lord was still with us.

How did you all feel when Roosevelt died? Was it an impact on you?

Oh, it was a sad situation because we -- all our heart and hopes was into Roosevelt , and when he died, we did not see any means of us coming back to the states because things was so tough. Saipan was a large island and we had a lot of difficulty on Saipan . As a matter of fact, we in the Marine Corps, although this is not never told, I doubt if all the ones that know about it is probably in the cemetery, but we had a five-day race riot there at Saipan , and one of the sad parts about it was Bob Hope came over to Guadalcanal . We went to the theatre that night. The theatre was nothing but an open field. We went to the theatre, black and white, and the colonel got up at the stage and stated that he did not know that the United States was at war until he saw the Negroes in his uniform, and we thought that was very objectionable words that he should use at that time, and we got up and we walked, all the black left and went on back to our area, and the next day we got words that the division was going to come in and do some shooting. Well, we had the ammunition company and we didn't want anything to happen. However, we wasn't going to allow somebody to just come in and shoot, and this kind of situation is kept quiet today because the colonel shut the PX down, shut the whole island down with everything because he stated that we insulted him when the black troops got up and walked away, and it was expressed that we did not like the words that he said. He was really stating that we were nobody, and he closed the PX down, and the chaplain filed a complaint and made it -- opened it up again because he used the article that we were at divine services, and that's in order to close something down that would be the article that you had to use and he did that. And my experience overseas has been a good one and a sad one. In my outfit, the first person that got killed in our outfit -- I can't even think of his name now, because 62 years ago his name is gone from me. He was from Philadelphia and he got blew up, and the next one, a 37-millimeter went through his body, but we were able to work collectively, black and white were able to work collectively together, although most of our time in the Marine Corps was separated. We had seen everything that you could see. We were looking forward to coming back to the United States. There was no black officers in the Marine Corps, all white. In my outfit the highest a black could be was three stripes. If you got to a four, which is a platoon sergeant, then the white comes in,
and this is the kind of situation, platoon sergeant and then Gunnery Sergeant. Master Sergeant, we did not have. It was very difficult to make rank in the Marines Corps. When I was a corporal, I felt as if I was the king, you know. I got along very bad with my commanding officer. He was from Greenville , South Carolina , God bless his soul, I know he's gone today because he was much older. His name was W.O. Livesey, and he was a segregationist from way back, and as a matter of fact, he was so bad on Guadalcanal he would give our equipment -- white would come -- we carried our own equipment because we was ammunition company. Road graders, bulldozers, trucks and everything, and he would let them come and take our brand new stuff when we come overseas and gave us old stuff, you know, just those things at the time. We, the blacks today, tries to sweep that under the rug because you move on, you know. I'm probably the only one sometime when we go to Washington I tell this, they don't want me to tell it. They say Brother Douglas, keep it nice, you know, but I look back at the persons and the fellows that died with me, and I look at the ones who die now in Iraq and it disturbs me from no end. As of last October the 3rd, I was 80 years of age, and I am thankful to the Lord that he allows me to continue on. I was baptized in 1944. I did not really reach and grab the Lord's hand until '74, and today I am -- I have served in many capacities, including the reverend badge is in my pocket, but I'm thankful to the Lord for what he's done in delivering me overseas and to fight for my country. If I had to do it again, I would do it all over again. If I had to choose the branch of service that I would go into, I would go in the United States Marines Corps, although things are much better today. They don't even know nothing, they don't have an idea of the stuff that we went through. Back in Montford Point, you could be slapped, knocked down with the fist and punished and nothing -- I have seen people get hurt, maimed, and I have seen them get discharged out of the service for disability for what happened in the Marines Corps, and when the first people got drowned way back in Parris Island , South Carolina , when the drill instructor gave an order for them to march out in the bay and didn't give the order to the rear, and they drowned, a lot of that started making the higher-ups in the Marines Corps take notice to things that were happening down below, because I never believed that a person could be treated like I was treated when I went in the Corps. And to this day I don't like it. It was unnecessary. If you got mail, you had to go through the belt line, you get a whipping, if you got letters, you know, and sometimes things went too far, and I was one that rebelled all the way through the Marines Corps, things of that nature I felt was wrong. My Captain, Captain Livesey, I was going in the office to tell him about them transferring our equipment into the white areas, and he would tell me to get the hell out of his office, and as I would get ready to go out, he would say what are you supposed to do, and I would turn around and salute him. He knew my feeling. He couldn't stand me and I couldn't stand him, and we existed, you know, but one other thing happened in one of the persons from Stark, Florida . We got ready, we are leaving Guadalcanal going to the invasion, and they was treating one man so bad, he told this officer, said “when we get in the invasion, I'm going to kill you,” and his name was Graham, I can't think of his first name now. They sent him back to the United States with a dishonorable discharge, and I wrote a letter in his behalf, but naturally it wouldn't go no where, but I did. I was the kind of person that didn't believe that unjust action should go on and I don't believe it today. I fight injustices today. I got out of the Marines Corps and started working for Bethlehem Steel Company. I arrived at Bethlehem on August the 2nd. We went down that morning --

August 2nd of what year?

August 2nd of 1946. I got out of the Marines Corps in June of '46, and I went -- I had taken a mud hole and I went looking for a job and I went to Bethlehem and we got down there that morning. It was seven o'clock, and we laid around all day, all morning until one o'clock and they started hiring, and thanks to the Lord I was hired on the first day that I went down there, and in the employment office, there was no kind or signs of discrimination or nothing. You could go to the bathroom, you could drink out the water fountain, and then that evening after they hired me -- I didn't have no funds. After they hired me, they sent me over in the hot strip mill, the 56 hot strip mill, went into 56 hot strip mill, and all you could do was labor. A general foreman named Stanley Johnson, he was the type of person that --

Now, when you came out of the service, your mom and dad were living in Baltimore ?

No. When I came out of the service, my dad had passed on, and my mother had passed on. My mother passed on right before I got out, and my dad passed on right after I got out. We just talking -- are we on?

Yeah.

My father had glaucoma. I don't know where the glaucoma came from, but he had one eye and he had lost the other eye from Bethlehem Steel, and the glaucoma had taken over the other eye and he went blind. He lasted about a year after he went blind, but when I went in to the mill, there was a difference from the employment office. In the employment office everything was nice. When you get over in the locker room, outside it says white, colored, and when you go in, they had a colored side, which colored side was mostly always on the right and white on the left. It seemed -- I have always felt like if they are going to segregate, it seems the white would be on the right and the colored would be on the left. Or water fountains, you go in the mill -- around the furnaces the water is -- you can go and drink it. As you get further down in the mill where the steel is rolling, high complexity, more money, millwrights and everything, living the life or furnace people, when you get down there, the water fountains is closed to you, but where they swept you could go and drink water at the water fountain, and I have always thought about that.

Where were you living at this time?

I was living at 414 Robert Street in Baltimore , West Baltimore between McCullough and Drew Hill Avenue . That's where I was living at at that time, and my father lived on Sparrows Point when he was down there, but I was living with his sister. I came to Baltimore and lived with his sister, and he had a sister and a brother in Baltimore, and I --

Were they working at Sparrows Point also?

Yeah, he worked -- his brother worked for Patapsco and Back Neck Railroad. As a matter of fact, he retired from -- he went into disability from Patapsco and Back Railroad, and then we had another brother, my father had another brother that died from Patapsco and Back River Railroad, they were working on the railroad out there in the weather, worked on the steel side mostly all the time, and when I -- they only had one mill hot strip at that time. They only built the two mills. 56 was the mill at that time, and the only thing you could do is work in the labor department. I became the first shop steward, black, in the hot strip mill in 1947.

Do you remember who were your officers of the union at the time?

Yes. Chris Lucas was the president at that time. He was a wonderful person. He was of the Greek nationality and he treated people right. He did the best he could do.

Was he from Weirton , West Virginia ; do you know?

I do not know where he was from, because the Greeks live somewhere around Highlandtown, around Highlandtown and Easton Avenue , somewhere in there, but Chris Lucas was the president, I was the first elected shop steward in my mill, and then black, first black, and I was also the first elected assistant grievance committeeman.

Now, what got you interested in the union?

What got me interested in the union is this stuff that I had taken in the Marine Corps, the unjust situation. And then at Bethlehem Steel I'm looking at the same thing, all blacks working in the labor department. We've got steel running down approximately two blocks long. The steel that's traveling comes out of the furnace on a conveyor line and travels on down, and it's in a bar this thick and it comes all the way down, comes down and it is running a couple thousand feet, and the thing that got me is the fact that if any of the workers down in the coil pit where the steel is going to curl up, if any workers stay out, they will call the labor department where I worked at and say send me someone down here to work today, send me someone down here tomorrow morning, and you go down there and you work with the white all day long, you see, you are doing the bottom job down there, but you are down there, and then you can work down there 30 days, 60 days or a year going down and going down, but you could not become a part of it, and it stayed in my crow.

By the time you got to Sparrows Point, the union had only been there about four years.

Oh, the union had been there longer than that.

Well, it came in September of 1941.

'42 I think.

Well, whatever, but were people you worked with talking about what it was like before the union?

No, because most of them was white, and white didn't want to have a conversation like that at that time. That's the way the system was at that time. Baltimore city itself didn't remove segregated laws off their books until 1947, you see, and the first time that a black could go to the theatre with a white was at the town theatre in 1951, because The Roosevelt Story came out. In order for The Roosevelt Story to be shown in the theatre, it had to be nonsegregated, and I even went to the town theatre there on Frederick Street . So things were just bad at that time, and in the union, they did not believe -- white didn't need a union. God bless them that they paid the dues, but they didn't need a union because they could get things done. It was the blacks that really they paid no attention to, and I don't know whether you call it -- I had been raised in the south and I hate segregation and discrimination, so therefore, I started working with the blacks that were being sent home for nothing. If they come in late, they sent them home, and unjust stuff I could not take, so I represented them, and I stopped all that foolishness, too, and that's the thing that made it so good. My general foreman was an elder person, he didn't have much to do for blacks, but the fact he worked with them, so therefore, you could get along, and he and I got to be good buddies. He loved to go to the horse races. I could call him at his home, and if he's not there, I could tell him of a situation and I tell his wife of a situation that's going on at the mill, they are denying this man the right to go down on the job and the job is not going to work him, and she would say you tell them that my husband said let him go ahead, you see, and that's the kind of rapport that we built up.

So one of the big issues at that time was ability to move up in the promotion?

The big issues at that time was you did end it, but you didn't end it, but still you go down and do a job that you could not become one of.

According to the history in 1942, Charles Parish --

Charlie Parish, I know him well.

Had an arbitration case in which the discrimination was raised for the first time in the steel industry.

On the steel side.

What was Charles Parish like? Because he had worked there many years by the time you got to the Sparrows Point.

Yeah, he worked there and he had about six or seven children at that time. I think he had about nine in all, but he had six or seven, and as a matter of fact I think I went to his last son's funeral about two years ago, Parish, Bernard Parish was a staff representative, and one of the things is that my doing helped Bernard Parish, it helped because they didn't believe in having black staff. We had a black staff man, I have a picture at home the first black Vice-President of our union and he moved up to a staff representative, and Joseph O'Neill is his name, and I'm there -- I have a picture with me in Los Angeles , California , with David McDonald with a hand on my shoulder. I was raising hell about -- this was 1952, '52 or '56, one, I can't remember which, we was at a convention, and I brought up on the floor, which they didn't have that coming on the floor, I brought up about the Sparrows Point segregation and discrimination, and he calmly talked to me about -- I have a document over there that they put out from that, from the California convention.

Well, let me go back to Charles Parish because I have some stuff --

Go back to Charles Parish.

Because that case follows through until 1950 when he finally got the job, he lost the arbitration, but there were two guys, a Stewart Huler Thompson?

Huler, yeah, he was -- back then he was able to move up to the president of 2610 union. I knew all of them.

And there was another guy Mike Howard?

Yeah. And then GI Johnson. All these are 2610 people, because over in 2610, it was three quarters black.

That's the steel side local?

Steel side and blast furnaces and all that. So blast furnace, open hearth and all that, so therefore -- and then we have a member of our family that died representing the steel side, Rose is his name, but we -- back to Charlie Parish, Charlie Parish was the only man that we could see working in the mechanical department, you know, and they didn't have a lot of people working in the mechanical department way back then. Charlie Parish was a -- he was a fighter, Charlie Parish was a fighter, too, and he was somewhat like me. He wanted to raise his family to do the right thing, but you know, don't do me just because of the color of my skin, and that's the way he was. He remind me of myself.

And were you guys friends for years?

We were friends for many years. As a matter of fact, I started working with the 2610 way back. We formed a black organization, our side of the union called the Statesmen, and we would meet once a month at one of our house.

When was this; do you remember?

Yes. Well, the Statesmen started in 1951, the Statesmen club, but it started from the tin side. You see it started from the BL department, which is the tin mill. There was a person in there, Floyd Rogers -- there was a person named Floyd Rogers, and he didn't like what was going on over in the tin mill where he worked at, you see, and we started meeting outside -- all of us belonged to 2609 union, and we started meeting to see what we could do about some of the things. We would meet in one another's houses, and then we started raising funds, and we started meeting at the beautician club on Madison and Wilson Street . That was the way we generated, and then from there we started the Steelworkers and Shipyard Workers for Equality.

So in all this time now you are working as laborer in the mill?

Working as a laborer in the mill.

In the hot strip?

In the hot strip. We had not been -- and I'm a union representative in there and we are respected by white and black, although they look at me as -- the white looked at me as a black representative, but I represented white and black. There were white that wanted me to represent them in their grievances also, but there wasn't a lot of them because naturally a white person going to a black guy for representation in the hot strip at that time wasn't the best thing for him to do.

Well, what was your work like? Were you on shift work?

Oh, yes, I worked daylight, evening and midnight.

What was that like?

Nothing but just doing the labor jobs. If something happened down on the mill, you've got go down and clean it up, or if they need someone to come, we could go to any department. I've got a list of all the departments over there, we could go to any department and work, but we just day labor, we go there and help them out that day. The people having trouble on the lines in the sheet mill, we go over there and help out. We go down in the pickler. We would go down there and work with them in the pickler. We could not become a part of it, but we could get paid the same labor rate. Don't care where we worked at, that's just labor rate.

What was it like working in a place with 30,000 people?

Well, one of the things about it by me being in the Marines, the Marines Corps educated me to no end, and it gave you the feeling that if you did it, I can do it, and I will do the unexpected, and that was one of the things that the Marines Corps taught me, do the unexpected. Whatever they are thinking you will not do, do otherwise, and I was able to use it in the union. When I wanted to get something going with the union, I would meet not with the union, because when you meet with the union, you are under their laws, and when I was able to go and meet in Washington D.C. , we did so without the union. When I went to Bethlehem Steel in Pennsylvania , we picket Bethlehem Steel. I carried five bus loads up there, and that was one tough situation. When we got there --

What year was this?

Pennsylvania , 1967, around 1967. We went and picket Bethlehem , Pennsylvania . We shut the door down, the door that turned that goes around. We were recognized after we got there that as a whole white people don't pay no attention to black people. That's the only time they pay attention is when you are disorderly. I had all these people out there, and we left Baltimore in May. When we got up there, the weather was changed, it was cold, and the women that we had with us, it was tearing up their jackets and their placards, the wind coming down from the mills there, and I sent word up there to the general manager to do something to meet with us, because we needed to come in, we needed the restroom, and they paid us no mind. Now, the next word I sent up there that if you do not open up a facility for us to use the restroom, we will start urinating in your green grass, and in order to do that they barred from crossing the street. When we got there, we couldn't cross the street. But we recognized that in order to get some action you are going to have to be disobedient, so I called a group of them together, I said listen, I've got to have at least 40 people that can go to jail and I'm going to be one of them. I've got to have those that don't have no five days penalties and all that, you can get five.

And all the people were working at Sparrows Point?

All working at Sparrows Point.

Men and women?

Well, no, the women went with the men, and so I've got to have at least 40 people that can stand to go to jail without losing their job, and I was able to get them. So I said now what we're going to do we're going to cross over there where they've got their officers at saying they are going to lock us up if we cross over. We will cross over. We crossed over, and they didn't lock us up because the news media were there and they didn't want to see the news media arresting their own people for trying to get just rights. So after we got over across the street where they barred us from, then I said that's not the key. I sent a message upstairs again that we want to meet. I said we have eleven people. They sent down and say we will probably, if you keep your discipline, we will meet with five. I said we're not going to tell you how many people to have up there and don't you tell us, because our executive board consists of eleven people, and we squabbled, and I took a knock on one person and they met with us. But in order to do that, we had to get to -- we decided to go to jail again. We stopped the turn door from coming, we wouldn't let them come out. They couldn't come out. We stood there and held the door, and said well, lock us up. So then they started meeting. They called us and let us know that we were going -- I went upstairs and I met with them and we laid our stuff out.

Was this as the guardians or was this just a group that went?

No, no, these were the steelworkers and shipyard workers.

For equality?

This was workers of Bethlehem Steel, and this is the message that I sent up there all of us are employees of this company, you will not let us in to use your restroom, but we have employees of the company, you see, and so then I said to them we must defy. They don't pay no attention to people being nice. So they told us that we have three people that need to get to the app. hole. I said look, let them out, let those people go. We held it again, and then they sent for us, told us to come on up. We went up and sat down, and when I laid out the things that we wanted --

And what did you want?

Well, we wanted -- we asked them for six things. We want to eliminate racial segregation. We want to eliminate the bull jive testing, because they tested who they wanted to test, and we wanted to be able to move throughout the plant with seniority, and they agreed to these things, but they didn't want to agree to them unionwise. They said listen, all we are going to tell you is that before you get back to Sparrows Point, these things will be in the making, and I got them over there that they was in the making, and several things that didn't come, and then I called the general manager and told the general manager that I need to have a few meetings with him, not with the union, so that we can iron out the situation.

Now, were officers in the union not sympathetic to this at that time?

Oh, no, because you see the union had to keep a response to the white worker. The white worker didn't need no union, but they were paying the dues, and the union had to still show that they were strong with the majority of the workers, which was white, and I could understand that, you know, but the factors are that we knew that we had -- here is where the trick came. When we got ready to go to Washington , I had started meeting at 732 North Eden Street with the Congress of Racial Equality. I asked for a representative to come down, and they sent down Lincoln Lynch from New York City , and the idea that a top Congress of Racial troublemaker would come in to Baltimore gave us a great help. We went to Washington D.C. and they were at the table with us and they did a very good job. I had to break away from them though, because after we got things moving, they held a press conference without us, and they talked about them crackers down there denying blacks the right to go here and stuff. You see they can go back to New York City and got no worry. We've got to go back down in the mill, so I fired them, and then I had taken and smoothed all that out.

How did you work out the agreement with the shipyard workers and the plant workers? Did you know people from -- where were you living at this time?

I was living in Turner's Station. I moved in the city -- I moved back in the city in August of '57, but I was connected to Turner's Station down in there and the situation with the shipyard. There was a man living on Main Street , and he was a preacher, Reverend Fleming, he was a member of the Steelworkers and Shipyard Workers for Equality. I said to Reverend Fleming, I said listen, I need the shipyard to come in with us, they are having the same problems we have, and he told me, he say make contact with Reverend [Oscar} Hoggs because he stands up for the people over there in the shipyard. So I said well, that's good. I got in contact with Reverend Hoggs, and Reverend Hoggs met with me and three more of our officers, and we agreed to come together.

Do you remember what year this was about?

Yes. This was 1965.

Did the Civil Rights Act help you?

Oh, yes. Oh, yes, the Civil Right Act helped us very well, because we were able to use that. Every time we would challenge the company, we had to use that. It was a blessing to us, and it was a God send. With the shipyard, all of their employment was similar, but they were looking forward to salary situation, and we hired -- didn't have to pay him but a dollar, but we hired Gerald Smith, an attorney-at-law, to advise me. He was with the NAACP education and he came with us and he advised us.

He was a local lawyer?

Yes, his office was down there on St. Paul Street , and as a matter of fact his office is 727 St. Paul , right off of Madison Street , and he was a good advisor for us, because when I fired the Congress of Racial Equality, I discussed it with him because we had a meeting on Sparrows Point away from the main office and we hired a truck and put it there, and then the Congress of Racial Equality went in to that white stuff, that's the way they agitated the situation see, but the only thing about it they never recognized that we are the ones has to go back in the mill, and when I went to the mill that next day, they jumped me, they said Brother Douglas, all them names that you all are calling us, you know. I said now, it was from a group from New York City and we are not with them any more because we are not trying to alienate none of the situation that we are trying to do here.

Was there over time a lot of kind white backlash in the mill against the activities?

No. The backlash was with election. I ran for election all the time. Bartee beat me. I ran the first black -- well, the second black man that ever ran for vice-president on the ticket. They had two tickets all the time, like Democrat and Republican. First I was with a ticket that they called the blue ticket.

And who was the president candidate?

John O'Connor was the president, and the ticket that I was with was like a liberal ticket. Well, naturally they was against that ticket, whites was against the ticket. But we tricked them like the situation going on between the United States Senate seat, you know. I was a candidate and they were running a white person against me on the ticket. Well, they were smart enough to reach and get Bartee and they ran Bartee against me, so Bartee won, that other ticket won, because it was a Republican ticket, it was a conservative ticket you see.

Did you feel bad that Bartee ran on that ticket?

Oh, no. Of course Bartee when Bartee was a little boy, Bartee used to shine my shoes, I used to give Bartee money.

Really.

Bartee used to come out and look after me, I was living on the Point and Bartee -- as a matter of fact, I would throw Bartee some money. Bartee is crazy about me. Bartee would do anything for me. Although we ran against one another, he was on the other ticket, and I didn't care, because I was known as a rebel riser, so Bartee was the man that got along with all whites. So naturally I lost, but it didn't bother me none because we were able to get a black man for the first time in years.

So the core group was here around 1966 or '67?

Yes.

And then you continued with the shipyard workers?

Oh, yes. We continued with that group, and let me tell you, the trouble came when we got the 30.9 million dollars. After we received the 30.9 million dollars, which I didn't even care about that part of it. My main focus was on opening up the doors where the blacks could go anywhere, eliminate the testing and the bull crap that they had going on. Well, after we eliminated that, then they paid the 30.9 million dollars. Then we had guys which was one of them was my first vice-president, he said -- they had a bar down on North Avenue and in order to -- this bar that they dealt with they start bringing steelworkers in there and they start holding meetings to the money that they were getting, the six, eight, nine, that's not enough money, and they started this kind of thing. We were not after money in the beginning. A white person, God bless his soul, his name was Irving Auerbach. Irving Auerbach said to me, he said, "Brother Douglass, you take a look at this," and it was all about reparation. I wasn't going to think about no reparation because I was thinking about opening up the door. They took and started raising all this here saying that we wasn't doing nothing, and this kind of thing, they didn't get enough money and so on, so I decided to go get away from the whole business.

Now, was Francis Brown involved in that?

Yeah, Francis was. He was the leader of it, and so when Francis brown started this foolishness, I said well, I have copies of what I was after to see that the doors open and that's where -- then I told Reverend Hoggs, I said we're not going to deal with them, because we were Steelworkers and Shipyard Workers for Equality, not them. As a matter of fact, not one letter went away without me sending it. I wrote all the communications.

Were you in touch with people in other parts of the country when this went on?

I was in touch with three. I was in touch with one in Virginia and one in Alabama , explaining to them the situation that we were going on, and we communicated.

Because the mills in Birmingham were really among the first to raise these issues and it was a much tougher area in some ways.

Well, that's right. Anything down south was a tough issue for a man to take a stand. It's like why blacks are not -- black coalminers are only four or five percent, because you are dying in the ground, you understand what I am saying? You are already in the ground, you don't want nobody to put you in the ground, so you've got to be very careful what you say and do.

Because I'm looking at some records here that the first arbitration down in Birmingham was an attempt to get a black helper in the blast furnace moved up to be the motor inspector.

But they got it, they eventually got it.

They did eventually. The arbitrator gave this guy the job, and the union --

But he ran into a whole lot of trouble after that. I used to communicate with them -- I tried to deal with people, and then they had another company that I helped out, it's out of business now. When you are going down to Sparrows Point and you make that left turn, I can't even think of the name of that street, but it used to be a steel mill right before you get to the shopping center where -- where is that place that we eat at where we go to dinner? MRS. DOUGLASS: Cactus Willy.

Cactus Willy. Before you get to Cactus Willy, there was a steel mill over on the left side going toward Cactus Willy.

Down on North Point Road ?

Yeah.

Where it's now East Point Mall? MR. DOUGLASS: Yes. There's a steel mill over there that had the discrimination.

It wasn't Eastern Stainless; was it?

Yeah, I believe it is. That was the name of it -- wait a minute now. Eastern Stainless had two places, and then they had one on Billiard Street, wasn't it, and then they had one of these places that I had a person that used to live next door to me worked in the mill department, but he couldn't promote no where and he became the chairman of that group in there, see, and we worked to help out there. That mill closed down. I don't know what brought that mill down to its feet.

As the Steelworkers for Equality got going, were you in touch with politicians in the city?

Oh, yes.

Did any of them help you?

Now one of the things that was beneficial to me is that I when working for Bethlehem Steel took a leave of absence from Bethlehem Steel, a modified leave of absence. I was required to work two days a week. I worked two days a week and then I worked for Baltimore City . I became a director under William Donald Schaeffer was the mayor at that time, and I was the first black man that had left Sparrows Point. The white man left was Mimi DiPetro, but I was the first black man that left Sparrows Point and would later work for the city and still work for Bethlehem Steel.

Mimi DiPetro worked at Sparrows Point?

Oh, yeah, Mimi DiPetro -- he died you know, he died a few years back. He was a good city councilman though, he could get things done.

Did you ever know him at Sparrows Point?

I didn't know him at Sparrows Point, but I dealt with him in the city, and then me and him were able to talk about Sparrows Point and all of that.

What year was it that Mayor Schaeffer appointed you?

Appointed me in 1968, '69 I think it was.

So that period from 1964 to 1965 through '68, '69 was a busy time for you?

Oh, it was very busy. It was very busy, and you see I even -- I worked with all the politicians. I joined the greatest black political group in the city, and that was the East Baltimore Democratic Organization under Councilman Du Burns and Senator Bob Douglas and all. I was one of their officers and advisors for years with that organization. I served them 30 years, and as a matter of fact I broke from them because I got angry with the way they were letting John Hopkins manipulate them, and I joined the Larry Young group. I ran on Larry Young ticket and won, one an elected position on his ticket, Larry Young, and then he got in that trouble.

Are you still in touch with him?

Yes, I'm in touch with him, but I'm not in favor of the senator that they have now. She doesn't hook up to any --

Verna Jones.

Yeah, she doesn't hook up to no -- she wants to do the right thing. When a person wants to do the right thing, I'm with them, and I have worked with Larry Young a long time, and as a matter of fact Larry Young and I, we were like father and son, but I pulled away -- Larry got to the point whereby 50 percent of his helping was for those going up. The 50 percent coming down stayed down, and I break away from them kind of people. Any time you get to the point where you don't help all people, goodbye.

When did you move out of the city?

I moved out of the city August of 19 -- moved out of the city?

Yes. MR. DOUGLASS: I'm still in the city.

This is still in the city, okay.

Well, I've been here a year.

I see.

We have been here -- over a year; isn't it, dear?

That's interesting. You bought a new house when you were almost 80 years old.

Yeah, well, my wife is a money woman. She's the queen of the money. My wife is a person that believes in doing the right thing. Any man that's attached to my wife is going to do the right thing and will climb, because she is a person that believed that people should move up and do the right thing.

Let's go back then to Don Schaeffer appoints you to the city. You are working two days a week at Sparrows Point, but the momentum is gathering toward consent decree.

Yes.

What was that period like; a lot of meetings and discussions?

Yes. We would meet with the government over on Pulaski Highway at the Holiday Inn.

With the Federal Government now?

Yes.

And this was now the Nixon Administration by 1968?

Yeah, because he had Schultz, George Schultz was the Labor Secretary, and we would meet with -- George Schultz didn't meet with us much, he ducked us, but he let the black elected ones meet with us, which was a good thing.

Man named Fletcher?

Yeah, Fletcher, he worked with us very well. The only difference is that we could not expose what he was doing, meaning that he would meet with us and do all he could, but he is sitting in a position under other people. So I didn't go to the news media and said that Fletcher was making this move or making that move. As a matter of fact, I was negative. I would say that he said that in three weeks he would be back in touch with us, and he would have did so and so and so on, and I would say I called him and he's not returning my phone calls. I said this to the media he's not returning my phone calls, and then that helped him to continue working with me. I couldn't show where he was doing so much because he wouldn't be there.

But it was a heated time because George Wallace was running for President.

Oh, yes.

From your local?

Well actually nobody in Baltimore really paid any attention to George Wallace. I mean they wanted things for themselves, but they weren't worrying about that -- George Wallace sort of represented the outside and our steelworkers wasn't that defamed. They were looking out for self, but they weren't trying to do none of that stuff George Wallace was after.

Speaking of political campaigns, let me take you back in time and you may not remember, 1948, there was an election, it was a controversy over Henry Wallace and Harry Truman. So you remember any of those? MR. DOUGLASS: I remember.

Because your local, the 2610, actually supported Henry Wallace. MR. DOUGLAS Yes. Well, you know back in that time that was the best thing for the local union to do. You see the local has to think about what's their point of view and the surroundings of the people who they must contend with, and they contend with Essex, Dundalk -- Essex, Dundalk , that area were one hundred percent democrat, and you got to understand that kind of situation. Right now, they are jumping. I don't know which way to go like the people in Ohio , but I think they learned a lesson and they learned in this last election, they had so much turmoil going on in Essex about property and all that stuff going on, and it made the people feel as if they wasn't being represented by the democrats, and I think they sort of mingled, and they wish they had not because there's a mess. We wouldn't be in the mess we are in if we had a Democrat president, and we are just talking, you know.

Well, let me go back to another election, which is right at the time that Schaeffer appoints you, is for the District Director when Al Atalla retired in February of '69 and a man named Leander Simms ran against Ed Plato. Do you remember that election?

Yes, I remember it good.

What was it like?

You know, Simms was a good guy. Ed Plato was a good guy. Ed Plato and I fought like cats and dogs, but Ed Plato could get things done from the tin mill. He is from the 42 mill, Ed Plato, and even his wife -- I could get things done at the union hall from his wife. She was the number one secretary at our union hall, Plato's wife was, although they had separated, but I still could get her to do things that today I wouldn't tell. But between Simms and Plato, Plato has been a direct person. He was chairman of the grievance committee for quite a number of years, and me and him couldn't stand one another, you see, but the factors are if you are right, so be it. Plato wasn't really a segregationist, but Plato had to play the tune in his mill. Plato had a mill that went over there next to Bartee. In Plato's mill, they had to keep that stuff going, and that's what made Plato continue, but Plato and I understood one another because I'm from down south and I understand the situation.

Did you ever have dealings with Joe Kotelchuck when he was president of the local?

No. He wasn't our local.

He may have been 2609.

2610.

You were in 2609? MR. DOUGLAS I was in 2609. I started under Lucas and John O'Connor and all of them guys. As a matter of fact, I was the man on the floor. At every meeting, Lee Douglass is on the floor, and I was -- oh, we don't want to hear that, you know, but that's understandable, you see. They knew that I meant well and my words to them were this, today it is the black worker and I guarantee you in years to come it will be the white worker, because the first thing they do is they knock off their weakest link. After they knock the weakest link, then off they go and get the others, just what we are suffering with right today with no health insurance, no death benefit. Can you imagine somebody saying myself worked 40 years for a company and retire and they take away your death benefit. There are people walking around with a tank hooked on to them and they took their health benefit from them. And listen, I have the tape of the union hall about that -- about the meetings that was held. I videoed that myself. And if the day comes you want a copy, I will give you a copy.

Sure, I would love to have that.

That's when we had Barbara Mikulski, [Paul] Sarbanes and all of them come down and spoke, and I was down there with my group.

Well, after the consent decree was passed and signed, what was it like? Were you still working for the city most of the time?

Yes, I was still working for the city. And you see the thing about it is this, my main purpose was taken care of, the organization --

Which was opportunities in the future?

Yes, open up the door, promote in accordance with your seniority, institute plant seniority, eliminate this bull jive that you have been having for years, you set up a test only when you know you've got say people, you know, and this kind of thing. Do the right thing, that's all I said. When I met with the general manager, that's what I said to him, do the right thing. When we left Bethlehem , Pennsylvania , they say I know you are going to have a few meetings with the general manager, I said yes, because I had said to them do not hook us up together with the union because I do not want to get in that squawk. I understand the contract, I wrote grievances -- as a matter of fact, the point you spoke about, the lady, I wrote the first grievance of the women, and that's a thing about -- although it goes back to me again as a black person. The first grievance, big grievance was wrote by two women. Two women who used to work in the barracks at Sparrows Point, I mean at the Point. The barracks belonged to Bethlehem Steel, belonged to Patapsco Company, and they worked them there for years and years and years with the men. They decided to get rid of them. They let them go for two years and leave them out there, and then they had to replace them. So they put them in the tin mill, and this is a sad situation. They put them in the tin mill, and in the tin mill they put them in the janitor place. They did not want them in the there. They transferred them to the wire mill. When they got in the wire mill, they put them in the nail department, and the women in there was in charge, white women were in charge. They would take -- the black women, they would take their nails and get them in line, and they would find bad nails in them when they come back the next day. So they laid off the black -- number two, they laid off the two black workers. The grievance committeeman Ducky Jones, God bless his soul, I think he's gone, Ducky Jones refused to do the grievance, and I understand why. If you take up the grievance for these black women, then you ain't going to be around, so Ducky and I, we talked. I said I will deal it for them. I wrote the grievances for them and won. I wrote the grievances for the two black women, took near a year and a half before we won it.

You don't remember who the women were?

My age doesn't -- got me with the two women, but it could be easily done because it was only two, and Bartee would know them.

What year was this about?

This is about 1962, '64, something along in there.

So it's early?

Yes.

So not only were the black workers -- sounds like the women as well, so it was the whole controversy inside Sparrows Point?

Yes.

Society changing and -- MR. DOUGLASS: And you see, the thing about it is when the grievance was won, to this day the women didn't come over to me and say Brother Douglass, I thank you for that grievance, and I didn't give a dog gone, I didn't want them to, but it was just the fact that she had the grievance committee up there buying the champagne and going on, you know what I mean, and I said if they only knew. You are sitting and feeding with the ones that were making sure that you wouldn't get the job, and they got retroactive pay. But things like that never bother me as long as I do the right thing, and I believe I did the right thing. They came to me and said Brother Douglas, I'm having trouble getting my grievances done, and I'm afraid if they do them it ain't going to be where it's going to be winnable. So I said I'm going to talk to your grievance committeeman as a matter of customs and a matter of practice and I will do the grievances for you.

So now you started working for the city. Did you ever go back full time at the Point?

No.

You continued to split time, a couple days at Sparrows Point and couple of times with Schaeffer?

You see one of the things is I treated management personnel as I wanted to be treated. They treated me as one of their own. They were glad that I wasn't down there and I was glad to be away from there. So therefore, I would go down there and handle grievances. They would ask for me to come down on a discharge case and I would go down and represent them. We had the highest respect of management, and I'm proud of it, that even though I wasn't working there every day, I could go down there and it was just everything.

Did you work with Don Kellner then?

Oh, yes, Don Kellner. Don Kellner is a good man. He's my buddy. He's my buddy, too. Mention my name to him. Don Kellner -- I went through all of that with all of them because there was no union meeting that I wasn't there, and I would have myself six or seven people always setting there because we are ready to take the floor on an issue, and the issue had to be with discriminating, something they do even within the union, they always look for me to -- because I didn't give a damn. I would do the right thing. If you are right, I'm with you. If you are wrong, goodbye, don't even -- go to somebody else.

What made you decide to retire from the Point?

Well, what made me retire is that when you work so long, there's nothing down there as things changing and changing and changing, and my name -- I have many whites that respect me to the day. I mean the workers that work in the mill, they respected me for fighting for the underdog, many of them. And when I go to the union hall, we have seating together, and when I go, they come and meet me, Brother Douglass, because I always treated them with the highest respect, although we were different.

I think there's a bull roast this Sunday; isn't there?

Yes. I was supposed to send my money in, but I didn't send it because what generally happened, I want Bartee or some of them to send me the tickets and then I sit with them, sit with people, because I have been away so long I don't know everybody like I used to. I guess I have to call Bartee. I got the tickets, they done send the tickets to me, but I held them up because I wanted to be with guys that I know.

Let me ask you one other question, kind of going back in time because we have asked everybody this. You were there for the 1959 strike?

Oh, yes. I worked during the '59 strike.

Doing what?

I did janitor work during the '59 strike. As a matter of fact, see because I saw what was happening in the mill because I worked every day during the '59 strike.

So was there an agreement with the union that certain people would continue to work to keep the place up?

Yes. The millwrights, you had to have the mills to keep turning the mills over, and then they had janitors there to help clean, and this kind of thing.

Don Kellner told me he worked two days a week during the strike as a millwright. He would come in and they would work a crew and run the rats out.

During the strike, I worked, but I also worked with the union. I would be out at the union, had people out there, and I would be out with the union but I worked -- but they understood me working.

So then how was it when you retired? What was it like the first day when you didn't have to go down there?

Well, the first day my wife -- did we go off somewhere the first day after I retired, dear? After I retired --

This is 1985?

Yes, I retired December 5th, 1985.

So what did you do after that?

Worked with the city. I am chairman of Old Town Council Aid in Baltimore City , an area that encompasses the Baltimore City Jail, the penitentiary, Dundalk High School , that area in there. I work with the community, I am chairman of the community for them, and I have been the chairman for about 18 years.

Did you used to live in that area?

Yes, I used to live in that area, and I still represent them. That was the area that I was representing when I was elected, and then I ran on Larry Young's ticket and won on his ticket, and that's the area I'm on now. The Lord has blessed me to have been able to function at Bethlehem Steel, Marines Corps, Bethlehem Steel, Baltimore City , because I'm still working with the city.

If you had to do it over again, would you go to work at Bethlehem Steel?

Yes, I would go to work at Bethlehem Steel, because if I had to do it all over again, I would hope that the conditions, segregation and stuff wouldn't be there. Like in the Marines Corps now, the guys don't have no -- I talked to black colonels and generals, they don't have no idea of what went down, and I belonged to an organization called Montford Point Marine Association and we meet every month and we deal with all chapters throughout the -- we have chapters in all 50 states, and we have a convention in July down at Montford Point where you go back ever five years down to Montford Point, so we have a convention down there. All the old Marines come together, the ones who are left, not many, not many are like me.

Did you ever think of having your children work at Sparrows Point?

To me it would have been a good thing. I have a son that worked at the shipyard. He was -- some kind of work with the ship, and then he went in the Air Force and worked in the Air Force. He's an electronic engineer, but I have no regrets, none whatsoever, because I'm thankful to the Lord that he gave me the vision, and the main thing I'm thankful of that I never tell nobody, but I'm thankful that I didn't get fired from Sparrows Point. I have challenged them strongly, but I always studied to make sure that I wasn't out of bounds, you see. Because if they would have fired me, it would have been a pretty sad situation.

So the only thing that bothers you is the bankruptcy or the changes?

I would like to give thanks to the officers that worked with me in the Steelworkers and Shipyard Workers for Equality and thank goodness our main officers was white. The organization was such that they worked with us and did a most wonderful job.

Any of those officers still around?

Yes, not many. Francis Brown is one. Robert Dalton who is a senator, Robert Dalton, 2538 Cecil Avenue , he's one. He was elected senator. He was the only black that was able to be on leave from down there, me and him. I used to write his grievances for him. He was a shop steward down in his area, and him and -- our secretary for the steelworkers and shipyard workers, Benjamin Hammond, I used to write all those grievances for them. I used to sit up at nighttime and write their grievances so that they could win their cases.

What do you think the future is for steelworkers?

The future is good. The only difference is that they have to -- they have got to work toward democrats. It's sad that it's necessarily said, but the democrats believe in women rights and they believe in human rights. Bush got in saying them liberals and they branded him, but I can tell you right now there is no democrat would have us in the mess that we are in now that we will be in for years to come. It is a serious situation, and believe when I tell you many people hate Bush. I don't hate him because I pity him. The man I believe wants to do good, but everything he does with the advice that he takes backfires, and that's where I think the trouble is.

Any last stories you can think of from the Point, funny stuff, sad stuff?

Well, you know, I am proud of the people that I worked with at Sparrows Point. I'm proud of the people that I worked with in the hot strip mill. They had whites in the mill that was prejudiced as far as jobs were concerned, they didn't want nobody to promote to their job, you know, and all. But for going out of their way to do harm to blacks, we didn't have that, we didn't have it, and that is the reason why it was necessary for me to deal with the Congress of Racial Equality when they had this news conference without our presence and talked all that stuff about whites and when they don't have to go down there in the mills, and I stopped that in its tracks right there and told them thank you and goodbye.

All right. Anything else?

I would like to give thanks to my wife.

Okay.

My wife is a queen. My wife cares about people and she will do anything she can -- listen, my wife is a city retiree. My wife -- guess what? I was able to hire my wife for the city. Now isn't that something? My wife worked and was able to retire from the city from me hiring her; isn't that something?

All right. Well, I want to thank Lee Douglas and his wife for this great interview.

Well, my wife is Rosa and I call her queen. Rosa Lee Douglas is my wife's name and I am proud of her. Sc, our former mayor and governor, and now he's the comptroller and he is trying to do a good job as he always. He doesn't know whether to lean to the left or the right, but that's his decision, and the pleasure is mine in dealing with you because I'm grateful for you inviting Bartee and I down to Dundalk Community College.

Well, it's great having you. All right.