All right. It's May 1st, 2006, and I'm talking with LeRoy McClelland at his house off Stemmers Road in Essex.

Bill, let me correct you. It's LeRoy, L-e-R-O-Y. [emphasis on second syllable]

Good, I stand corrected.

Well, even on my birth certificate I didn't realize that until so many years later that I was a LeRoy and not a Leroy. A little quirk.

Tell us about where you grew up.

Well, where I grew up was in Baltimore City. It was right at 115 South Collington Avenue, and them homes down there at that time, probably still is, I haven't been back there for a long time, but they are like a city block long, and we had from the street of Collington Avenue, behind us was Madeira, which was the alleyway, and when we grew up I guess a lot had to do with sort of the group that stuck together there, and we did a lot of playing over in Patterson Park, Cannon Hill and Baby Pond and used to be a dining pool that we would swim in on the weekends. What I remember more outstanding is that we never had a refrigerator. We had an ice box. We never had indoor plumbing. We had outdoor plumbing, and growing up with that kind of an atmosphere and to see it change as we got older was fascinating enough. We had the ice delivered -- would you believe when I tell you this that we had ice delivered by the horse and wagon, which was really something different and even when they come to collect like rags and newspapers and what have you, it would be horse and wagon. Our vegetables and fruits, it would be horse and wagon. I guess the fascinating part of all of that was in the evening there would be a guy with a ladder on his shoulder who would light the lights, which were gas-operated lights. This is part of -- as I was growing up and as these things were going on around us, now where I'm at today at my age 69 thinking back then how uncomplicated things were, how dependent you were on knowing what you knew, not a computer which you stick your hands into and then you ask for a question to be answered. You had those answers because you dealt with people one-on-one, and it was all part of the closeness of neighborhood living compared to what it is today, because today it's fast -- everybody is on a fast track, nobody has got time to even touch a table and feel what the table is. It gets to a point to where you are looking at a part of transition is life that went from uncomplicated, you knew what you had to do, you earned your allowance, there was no give me, you earned it or you didn't get it. Today that's changed immensely in a lot of ways. But my age as it is now and where I have already been in the past, I felt there was a lot more that I should be entitled to. Here I worked 42 years at Sparrows Point. I served our country in the Navy from 1955 to 1959, and you look for certain perks that you were sort of guaranteed would be available, and then because of bureaucracy and funding and all this other thing, these things started to deteriorate, and I know I'm jumping around a little bit here, but this is as it's flowing to me is the way it's happening. In the service I sit back thinking when I come out -- of course I was one of the lucky ones among others who come back in the country with all their arms and limbs and their sensible thinking and mind where others lost their lives. I left buddies who lost their lives over there protecting what we feel to be our liberty and our rights of this country, which now seems to be taking a turn again in wars that we shouldn't even be involved in, we should let people solve their own problems over there and take care of our problems, and our problems basically here is immense. It's health coverage, it's housing, it's so many things. More importantly, outsourcing. Where is the younger generation -- where in the world are they going to find jobs, because everything you look out there is technically operated? There is no hands-on type of operation any more. Everything is computerized. You don't have the education, if you don't have a background of some education from colleges -- with me, it was high school, that's all you really needed because that was the common sense education level we lived in. Anyway, to get back to another part of where I was at. Come out of the Navy in 1959. We had people from Glenn L. Martin. I don't know how familiar any of you out there would be with that, but in Glenn L. Martin s, they had the P-6M Skymaster, which was a jet-operated sea plane, and we were mechanics on that particular engine, and when we were honorably discharged, we had these people come down and solicit us, around fifteen of us who were very qualified in that, in reciprocating engines and jet engines, because that was another fascinating part of life. We all ended up going out there, went to work for awhile with them, and then suddenly the Navy cancels the contract. They cancel the contract, here we are without a job, no where to go. So I went ahead and we put applications in at the fire department, police department, anywhere and everywhere. Bethlehem Steel was one of the big key places at the time because of the money. I mean the money motivates you. So as time went on I finally get a telegram telling me to report to the employment office of Sparrows Point. Well, in 1959 I went to Sparrows Point. There were umpteen guys there looking for employment and there were different places that we were not familiar with within the steel mill that would shock you to no end when you first experienced the atmosphere of the steel mill, and I for one was one that was lucky enough to get a tractor job, but back then I was only 21 years old and I'm saying tractor. Well, that puts me in mind of the big wheel and the little wheel farmer tractor, I thought that's what they were talking about. So when they finally get all their health and physicals and all that done and out of the way, they took a group of us over into the tin mill into the tractor department, and when I walked in there I'm seeing mechanics working on tractors. Never recognized those type of things in my life. They were huge and they had big flat wheels, not rubber tires, but big flat -- not flat, flat wheels, but it wasn't air tires.

Solid rubber.

Solid rubber tires, exactly, and then after we sat there and they introduced each other and then they went ahead and said this is what you are going to be trained on and this is what you are going to do, and I'm sitting in the class there, and I'm looking at a couple of people and I'm saying hey, let me ask a question, 'Where is the big tractor with the big wheels and the little wheels, the farm tractor," and the guy looked at me and says, "Hey pal, you are in the steel mill. You are not out on a farm," and it was just like what? And then they went ahead and broke us off into groups, and I went into the tin mill to see the operations of the tractors, and it was -- man, I will tell you when I walked in that door, humongous doors that opened up when you walked in, and I looked around, it was just unbelievable. It took your breath away. It was scary, because you had cranes up there moving back and forth with loads on it, rolls and stuff going back and forth. Tractors driving up and down on the mill floors. People that seemed to be walking from one area to other just sort of like a timing type of thing where you knew to be here because the tractor was over here and that kind of thing. My first training was on a 16,000-pound single boom tractor, which means that you pick up one coil, a 16,000-pound coil, and you would take it from a bay and you would put it on unit. You would feed it into the unit, they would process it. You would go on the other side of it, take that coil off and take it on down to what was known as coil pack.

Because somebody would band it at the other end; right?

Yes. In fact, all that was done here was tape. It wasn't steel bands, unless it was oil plate, something that wouldn't hold the tape. They would put a piece of tape on it, and you would take it down to the coil pack or if it had a defect in it, you would take what was called the skin pass or the tin mill grave yards, which was products that they couldn't send to that customer but may accommodate some other customer, and if it didn't, then --

And the tin was used for appliances and automobiles?

Yes. They were used for -- in fact, bobby pins in some cases. They were used for toys. They were used for food containers, battery brackets and all kinds of usage. As time went on they got into different type of plating. They went into galvanizing, they went into oil plate. They went into chrome plate. DNI steel, what we used to call skinny plate, and the reason why it was all brought on was because of competition from aluminum.

So the galvanized would be used for trash bins and --

Storage --

Containers of some water --

Sheds and awnings.

What about the oil?

The oil plate was usually used when you are sending that product overseas to keep it from rusting. That was the basic part of oil plating. They made oil filters. In fact, Prince Albert tobacco cans was one of their products also. I mean the metal was, not the making of the container. That was done by the consumer.

What about the skinny plate that you called it?

The skinny plate was a real thin material that they used for filters, used them like the screening that you would find in your furnace filter or you would see like the little fence -- not a fence, but a little screen type of thing. They were used for that kind of product. I guess there were other areas of my -- me personally, I can't speak for others, but the fascinating part in the steel mill was the way things operated was one person depended on the other to be here and do this, and you got such a close camaraderie with the group that you worked with, it was like a second family when you were in there, and you had certain jobs that you were assigned. I went from a 16,000-pound tractor to a 20,000-pound tractor, which was a split boom tractor that would pick up 20,000 pound or two 10,000 pound coils. Prep line, we would feed the prep line, take off the prep line, you would feed skin mills, take off the skin mills.

So Did you actually get out of the tractor and feed the material through the mill?

No. Back then you didn't do any of that. What you had was feeders on the prep lines, you had operators on the prep lines. You had Catchers on the prep line. All the tractor service did was service that particular lines. The shears down on the shear floor, they would have shear tractors that would take off the square pieces of steel that were box steel is what they used to make lids, canned lids, stuff like that from, but you would have a crane feed those shear operations. Down on the plating lines, you would have a tractor feed it on one end and then on the other side of the building you would have a tractor take off, and in between that you would have a girl, which was known as the CDR girl, who would inspect that steel inch by inch as it rolled right in front of her so she could pick up any defect. Just like the girls on the shear floor and the girls in the tin house, which was called flippers back then, they would take individual sheets, squares of sheet and flip it one at a time to be sure before the product left the Point was quality. That was one of the main things down there was quality, and in fact, it was like you entered into that steel mill, it was like entering into a closed world and nothing else outside them walls existed, just what was happening in that mill, and you took pride in what you were doing, and I know I did, and many times we would stop off up on North Point Road just to talk about the day that we had and the competition between the other crews we had. So it was a competitiveness there that we put on ourselves because we were proud and still proud to this very day of being steelworkers, and I guess the bigger part of all that came with change where I -- for one I'm a little ahead of myself. I for one when I first went into the mill, I'm looking where the bathrooms were and I was shocked to see that there was black, which was color, and white, two separate facilities, and there was one water fountain between them and I couldn't rationale what this meant, it just took me by surprise, and I would sit waiting to service one of the units and I would see a guy come out -- black guy come out of the colored section there and drink water. I would see a guy, a white guy come out and drink water out of the same fountain. So I said to the operator, I said, "What the hell is that all about over there?" He said, "LeRoy, that's been here since time." I said, "Well, I hear that, but why now?" I mean this is the '50s. We are almost into the '60s, I don't understand this.

Had your experience in the service reflected segregation or integration?

No, and that's the part I'm trying to tell you, Bill. When I went in the service, black, white, we all were recruited together. I ended up going to Bainbridge for basic training, which was a 14-week basic training, black, white, again from all over the country. I mean you name the state, there was somebody there from that state, white, black, Latino, Chinese, whatever, they were Americans. So anyway, we went through all that training and all, and none of that existed within the service. I left Bainbridge and went to Norman, Oklahoma, which was A & P school for aviation, and there were blacks in the same routine, and you never saw or felt any of that separation.

What about when they were off the base, kind of like Norman, Oklahoma?

The only experience we had -- in Norman, Oklahoma, you never had that phase of what we would call blatant discrimination. Wherever we went to eat, we all ate together. But in Norfolk, Virginia, it was a total different turn and that was a surprise. We left Norman, Oklahoma, went to Memphis, Tennessee, for A school. From there we went to Norfolk, Virginia, waiting transportation in my case to Gitmo Bay, Guantanamo Bay back then, and we want to go in town because we had a weekend liberty here, we were going to go in town, and when we went in town we seen these signs, "Dogs and sailors, stay off the lawn," and I couldn't understand what that was about, and I'm looking at the guy and said, "Look at this shit," we are over here going out to protect this country and they don't even want us walking on their grass. This is Norfolk, Virginia. So that being a bit of the conversation, we go to go in the restaurant and we had a couple of black guys that were with us that were in our crew, so we go in. The guy -- first thing he does is run up in front of us and says, "Hey, you guys can't come in here. Youse can." I said, "Say that again." "The black guy, the three black guys can't come in here." I said, "What do you mean they can't come in here? They are sailors, they are military people. They are serving this country, they are protecting your ass. What do you mean they can't come in here?" He said, "Look, guys, this is the way it is here. You are welcome, but they are not," and we just took one look at him and said, "Well, we will tell you what, we're not either." So We all walk out confused, but we should have listened to the captain of the base because he said we would not be sort of accepted in a mixed group.

Must have been a huge jump from the community around Patterson Park to all these experiences as a young man?

Oh, absolutely. That was another thing we can never face and learn is discrimination sort of crept into. To us, I went to elementary, went to all the schools. There were black, there were white. Nobody ever, ever dwelled on this fact of differences. As I think about it now I think because back then they sort of separated themselves. They just sort of had this thing. There was the Polish neighborhoods and there was Italian neighborhoods, and there were Irish neighborhoods and there were black neighborhoods, they sort of done that on their own, so you never put a lot of emphasis on it. When we went to the park, you didn't see many blacks there by the way and that was by their own choosing, that wasn't because anybody back then discriminated and said we don't want you here. You go to school, they were at school. Maybe not as many as it was before as it is today because they had their own schools, they did their own thing. So I guess what I'm driving at here is a lot of this was brought on because of their own will and their own wants, not something that they were forbidden to do.

Although Baltimore was a segregated city.

Yes, but we did have what they used to call a Jim Crow car, which was understood, I mean there was never an argument. The person, the black person would get on the street car, they would go in the back, bingo, automatically. There was no disputing about it or arguing about it. It was an accepted way of life. I think a lot of that for guys my age who were brought under that kind of style of living never took much seriousness about the discrimination, because I guess -- I don't know how else to explain it. We didn't really accept that because there was no objecting with black, white, German, Chinese, whatever, but we did and we were proud of our neighborhoods, the Polish neighborhood and the Irish neighborhoods and the Italian neighborhoods and the black neighborhoods. They were all proud people in their own ways I guess. I remember my father and neighbor sitting out on the steps with a jar of beer. They would send down to get beer --

Did they make you go get it?

At times we did, but if it wouldn't be for the bartender saying come in the side door we wouldn't have been able to do that, but at times we did.

What bar did you go to; do you remember?

My God. This was on Pratt Street, it was right on Pratt and Bellington. I don't remember the name of it, it's so far back. That would only be on weekends. It would never be during the week. It would be on the weekends, and that -- Christ, when we were kids we would play games called tin can Willy, we played red line and cowboys, Indians and cowboys and stuff like that, and played ball.

Was Patterson Park, Highlandtown area a Bethlehem Steelworkers area at that time?

Well, it's hard to say if it was or wasn't because the main operations here, besides Sparrows Point, was the ship yard, too, and General Motors, and naturally at that time, too, Glenn L. Martin, so it was a real mix of workers in that area.

Where did your dad work?

He worked at General Motors. In fact, my brother followed in his foot steps. Me, I was the only one who started off in Bethlehem Steel against wills of my father who said that's the most dangerous place to work and all, and I said, "Dad, they are making good money." "You come down here to make good money." No, I want to see what that's like, back and forth we went. This is years and years after now. We done moved from Collington Avenue to Chester Street, 924 North Chester, and naturally I'm in high school now and I've got my own little ways of wanting to do things, and my dad and I clashed, which was one of those things, and I said, "Dad, I've had it. I've got to go somewhere." He said, "Son, get yourself a job." I said, "Well, I think I've got one." At the time I am only 17, so I'm going into the service, a minority cruise is what they called it, but you couldn't go without your parents' consent, so my father was dead set against military, me going into the military, and my mother was whatever I wanted to do as moms do. So one weekend we are sitting up in the house in Chester Street, and I said, "Dad, I had it. We are not getting along, I just don't know what my next move is going to be. I'm asking you please sign this agreement to let me into the Navy, let me go." So my father looked at me and he said to me, "Is that what you really want to do? Do you really want to go in the service? Is that your life, what you want to do with life?" I said, "Dad, I don't know what I want to do in life, but I know I want to go in the service now," and after that little discussion he give me a little pat on the back, and he said, "You are your own man. I will tell you what, when you go in that service or anything you pursue after you leave this house, you do us proud. You do us proud. You don't have to be rich, but just do us proud," and that got me off into the service.

Did your dad work shift work at GM?

He worked basically all daylight, and in fact, after a few years he ended up being very experienced at glass, glass cutting. They had damage on the assembly line, a big windshield or side glasses or back windows, and he would be able to take and salvage some of that. So they created a whole unit there for him called a glass crib that he would work out of, and he would save GM and Broening Highway, he would save them hundreds of thousands of dollars because he was able to take say a windshield and be able to cut from that windshield and make a wing window. I don't know how many out here would be familiar with the wing windows that used to be in cars, a lot of them ain't there any more, but that's what he did, and out of his own ability to develop a piece of tool that was able to hold a glass strong enough so it wouldn't crack that he could cut that out. So he spent the biggest part of his work life as a glass salvage person on Broening Highway, General Motors.

Do you remember, you would have been a young guy, the 1946 strike?

'46 strike?

The GM strike.

No, I wouldn't remember much. I was born in 1938.

I just thought maybe there was some discussion, because I'm going to ask you about the '59 steel strike because you may have just hit the Point.

I did.

When the strike happened.

Well, when I come out after all this other little shakeup at Glenn L. Martins and finally Bethlehem Steel calls, and I get there and I'm doing my thing, that was in 1959, May 22, 1959, and in June, July of '59 is when the strike hit. So you had to be there a certain period of time to be in the steelworkers union, so I was between the shit and spit, you know, because I wasn't a member yet because I didn't have my 90 days or whatever the hell it was back then to become a member. So with that going on, that very night of the strike I happened to be transferred from the tin mill to the hot mill on the tractor, and that was 3:00 to 11:00 shift the night of the strike, so I'm on the tractor and I am waiting for the crew to come in. The 3:00 to 11:00 crew was just leaving out of there and I'm waiting for the midnight crew to come in, and I am waiting and I'm waiting.

No crew.

No crew, nobody, and I am looking and I'm looking at my watch, and I said it's almost twelve o'clock, where the hell is everybody at. So I have this salary guy come out and he says, "Hey, fellow, do you want to work over?" I said, "Work over?" He says, "Yeah." I said, "Where?" He said, "Well, we need somebody to go on the picket line down there and just turn the water on and turn, do that kind of thing. When it cools down, I will let you" -- yeah, sure, not knowing any different. So as I get off the tractor and start walking down, here comes a couple of guys up the walkway, and they said, "Hey, where are you going?" I said, "I'm going to work a double." "You will shit." I said, "What do you mean"? They said, "We are on a strike, pal. You get out of here or you are going to find your ass in that hot pit over there." It took me completely by surprise.

You don't remember who the guys were?

No, I don't, I have no idea. I know that they wasn't kidding around when they said what they said, so I just went ahead and walked on out. I didn't even go back to the foreman who had said that to me to work over, but when I walked out outside the gates, there were guys all standing around with their signs and all what have you, and I'm looking and I thought I don't know what the hell to do. Nobody is telling me anything, I'm not in the union so they are not talking to me, so I was sort of confused. So I walk up to one guy there, and I said "Hey, what am I supposed to do?" He says, "Who are you?" I said, "I'm an employee." "Are you in the union?" I said, "No." "Well, you ain't nothing, pal, you ain't even got a job. Get the hell out of here. Join the union," that's what he said to me, and I'm shocked, I'm totally shocked.

And no one had come up to you during your first 60 days or so and said hey, here's what's going on?

No.

Or didn't you hear talk in the locker rooms or in the break rooms?

No. It may have been going on, but me, I didn't pay much attention to what was being said because I'm the new guy on the block, and I'm not even in the union, that's not even involving me at this point as I took it as my understanding of it. It just seemed to me the way that those who were union were so proud of their union that unless you was a member, they wouldn't even talk to you. That's just the straw and the pride that they had and it took awhile to really see through all this, and for me anyway when I finally got into the union, which they were still on strike, so they gave me a chance to get involved because I convinced one of the guys back there -- I'm trying to think, it was either Ed Plato or Al Summers, I don't know, one of those guys back there who was a union official. I happened to go down there one day to see what's going on, what was happening to me and how do I get back to work, and I run into this guy, and Plato I think it was, and he had said to me, "Who are you?" I said, "My name is LeRoy McClelland, Sr. I'm a tractor operator in the tin mill." He said, "Are you in the union?" I said, "No, I came in May 22nd and you guys went July 1st you went on strike. I didn't have my days to qualify." He said, "Well, you stay here today, pal, and you are in the union." I said, "What have I got to do?" "Just stay around that barrel and hold that sign up, that's all you've got to do. When they honk, you holler strike, fair, unfair, fair, unfair," whatever, so that's what I did, and then finally we went back to work and --

Where were you living at this time? Still living with your parents or on your own?

No, I was on my own. In fact, I was living on Schoolhouse Lane right down off of Sparrows Point, North Point Road. In fact, where we were at was a bungalow. My wife and I rented a bungalow from the Webers, which used to be a Weber s Boat Marina.

So you had got married after you got out of the service?

Yes, I did.

To a woman from your neighborhood?

Yeah. In fact, now that you bring that one up, because when we were at the naval air station, we would come home on the weekends, and me and a buddy of mine would drive on up and we went out to of all places Gwen Oak Park when they had the wooden --

Roller coaster.

Roller coaster. And I seen what is now my wife of 47 years there, and I'm talking to my buddy, I said, "Hey man, look at this. I've got to get to meet her." Says, "Well, let's go do it." So we got our uniforms on strutting like peacocks, look at us. I went over, and I said, "Hey, hi, hon, how are you doing?" She looked at me kind of serious like to say  what do you want type of thing, and then we got to meet and talk, and I took her out on a date, and the next weekend we went on a date and then we ended up getting married. We didn't have kids until -- I was about 25 before I had any kids because just getting settled in and all, and I had -- after I come out of the service I bought a 1958 Chevy Impala convertible with a Continental kit. I was the cock of the walk when I am going with that and pick up my now wife. We used to drive around, go to different places and all, and then we decided to get married, and we did, and the first place -- by the way I'm a little ahead of myself because she was living in an apartment on Broadway, and she had a job and used to be Eastern Venetian Blind, so when we start going together and then we decided we were going to get married and I had said to her, I said look, if we get married, you are not going to work, that's not the intent. We don't need you to work. I'm working for Sparrows Point making big money, we don't need you to work. So she didn't hesitate to say yes or no about it, but to this very day she hasn't worked a lick, other than housekeeping. If I don't say that now and she sees this tape I will be in deep water, but that's the way that worked, and we ended up -- Webers used to be a schoolhouse right there on Schoolhouse Lane, and the Webers -- Frank, who was a captain of the Baltimore County Police Department. Annabel, who was a retired teacher who taught at that very building, that's their home. It's also a boat yard, I don't know what it is today. I haven't been there in such a long time. Their son Frankie, who had an eye problem, it was sort of like a roving eye who tried to get on the State Police, and they denied him because of his appearance. I don't know why I am telling you about this. But anyway, he talked to me back and forth, and I said, "Look, why don't we go to the eye clinic at John Hopkins Hospital and see whether that really has anything to do with your ability to see." So we did, and accordingly, the roving eye was an asset because he could be looking at you and also could be watching whatever might be going on over here. But after the medical examination approved everything was A okay physically, he got into the State Police. I don't know what he does today in the State Police, what rank he is, but that was just one of those things you run across people that are close to you.

Well, how did you deal with the shift work?

Shift work for me was tough because when we first got our training, it was all daylight, and then once we qualified, then we were put on different schedules, and it became a little bit of an adjustment, but I guess if it wouldn't be for the people you work with and the closeness, it would have been a tough change, because in some shifts we would work two daylights, two three to elevens and a midnight in the same week, and then we would go on what was a 20 turn, which you would end up going Friday night into Saturday, and then that's 3:00 to 11:00, and then you would double over into the first shift Sunday morning, which would be five midnights, and then you would roll into three three-to-elevens and five daylights. It was quite a challenge to adjust. In fact, it got to a point where you didn't know whether you were going to eat or sleep or take a crap, your system was so screwed up.

Did you find that because of that you were often as close to the people you worked with as you were to your own family?

Yeah. Well, there's another part of explaining the steelworker and what took place down there at Sparrows Point and on North Point Road, because that's exactly what happened. In fact, you got so close that your actual home life didn't really exist as a home life should have existed, and with me, with the guys and the manlihood type of thing and the competition of the steel and being a steelworker, we would stop off on the road and have a few, shoot pool, darts and bullshit. We bullshit -- we rolled more steel in those bars than we actually rolled in the shift when we were working, but in that atmosphere you didn't even think about your kids. In my point I was lucky because the first five years we didn't have any kids, it was just her and I, but you didn't think much of her either, I mean your own wife. She made her own little life at home while you were working and you come home, sometimes you come home and be a little tipsy. So you are trying to convince her that you are not and that doesn't work because you end up getting a cold fish, so it become a part of your life. You adapted to it. With me as time went on and we had children and my style didn't change because at that time I really embraced the union, and I embraced the purpose of the union and people like Neil Crowder, who I have immense respect for, because here I'm a young guy, he's a guy who has actually opened the door for organized labor in Sparrows Point as far as I'm concerned. I don't know many others. Lee Douglass I knew at times, and they all that purpose of making it sure that the work atmosphere was safe and healthy, and that I guess is what really turned me on to being part of the organization and getting deeper into it because I realized that the company doesn't talk to the individual employee. They do talk to the representatives, and to have your voice heard I realized that a representative was where I wanted to get into.

Obviously there were people who were in the mill when you started who had been there before the union?

Yes.

Did they ever tell stories about the old days before 1941?

Well, Duke was one of them. He was a roller up on the mills.

What was his full name?

I don't know. In fact, that's another thing, Bill, a lot of us really didn't know our full name, we had nicknames. In fact, we never wore steel hats, we never had the hats, never had the glasses. It was just steelworkers, and we were invincible, we couldn't get injured. That was not in our makeup that we had. But Duke, and there was a couple other guys that were nonunion, flatly nonunion, hated the union, and the reason I think -- with Duke, because I got the chance to sit and talk with him on the same shift because I was feeding the tractor, feed tractor for the mills and we had a breakdown and we were sitting in the cool down room because it got hot as it could be in that mill during the summer. Cold as it could be in the winter, and we would be sitting in there and he would be talking about the union and how degrading it is, and then it sort of hit me a little hard. I said, "Hey, Duke, let me ask you a question. Why do you feel so strongly against the union?" He said, "LeRoy, I had my own way. I had my way of getting things done, and if I want to work this shift, I could work this shift, and if I didn't want to roll a certain product, I didn't have to roll it, but with the union everybody has to be treated fairly, equally. I don't like that. Never liked it. I was here before the union came and I despise it for that," and I said, "Duke, I understand why you are so bitter. Let me tell you what, equality is something we all should be looking for. You are selfish, you are self centered. You are a person who really needs a lot of help," and that didn't get off too good because he jumped in my face, "Look, you little young punk, as far as I'm concerned you're not ever going to be on this mill again. I'm going to see to it they schedule you somewhere else," and I just happened to look at him eyeball to eyeball, I said, "I will tell you something, Duke, I'm a union person and the union will make sure I have my scheduled job. See you here tomorrow on the same shift," which happened, and as time went on --

Who was your committeeman then; do you remember?

Back then it was -- who was it? Ed Wilson, Dave Wilson. We had Donald Kelner. It might have been Kelner, might have been Donald Kelner back then. It's odd that we are -- like you said it earlier before that us guys that get older there are a lot of things that you do forget or you remember partially and then you just can't attach anything to it.

I actually said just the opposite. I'm amazed at how well people remember, how vivid the stuff is 40 years later as if it happened today.

There is some of that true in that, but there is other things that took place on the shift, some sudden change or something that affected your life is what it really did, and in my case what affected me was what I had said earlier, the safety and well-being of a person working and how close -- if it hadn't been for guys like Neil and the union being so strong willed and their members being dealt with fairly, squarely, safely and what have you, who knows what would be -- who knows if I would even be sitting here in front of this camera by the way, because it was not a safe place to work no matter what anybody thought. You had to take precautions, and some people become so accustomed to doing what you are doing on the job that if something was to happen out of the norm they wouldn't be prepared to deal with, and asbestos, chemicals and stuff like that has taken its toll. As you can see, if you get an opportunity to take the picture down there in front of 2609, the monument that recognizes those who lost their lives at Sparrows Point, you would see that death wasn't a thing that didn't happen. It did happen.

You talked earlier about thinking that steelworkers were invincible. Do you think that hurt you as far as safety and health?

Yeah, I think it did, and I think when I watch some of the older guys take chances, I associated that with being a steelworker and I think that image stuck there for a long time. Did we want to wear hard hats? No. Did we want to wear safety glasses? No. Did we want to wear gloves? No. Why? Because I'm a steelworker, and that sort of was a hard image for the safety procedures to take hold, and some guys were punished or penalized for not wearing safety equipment, and I guess being what was and what was done because of necessities of injuries and guys resented it. I mean there would be times probably right to this very day we would go down in the mill, there would be somebody in that mill who didn't have their safety glasses on. You would see it. It's just something that is there, or a hat, safety hat. Most cases -- in fact by the way now that you mentioned that hats, we resented that hat so bad we went on strike, we walked out of the mills over the hat issue, because we didn't want to be identified from what department we were working in, because we had some guys would move from one mill to the other walk around, talk to their buddies, their father, their uncles or cousin, sister, brother or whatever, but when they brought in the hard hats, they brought in coloring of the hard hats and that identified who worked in the tin mill, who was orange; the coal mill, which was red, and then so forth, so forth, the hot mills and the rod mills and the open hearth steel side. They were all identified differently. But the electricians had the same color hats, and mechanics had the same color hats, so our point was why are they departmentwise in every mill with same color hat and we because we're tin mill have to wear orange, especially -- it was everywhere, all the production except for maintenance. Maintenance people didn't have to wear the same different color hats in different mills. They wore the same color hat and that was a little issue that irked us for that reason by the way and -- well, anyway, we lost the issue because the union, which it was right, didn't want to arbitrate an issue where the company supplied safety equipment, you are going to take that before an arbitrator who is going to look at you and say what are you nuts, they are looking after your safety, you can't argue that issue.

It's also an issue of arguing that you wanted to have a little free time to float around and visit below the radar, but --

That's true. I will elaborate a little bit on that because there was a little bit of freedom of action there. Sometimes -- you know, because we had a card system back then. It was a card, time card you clicked in, you clicked out. Sometimes depending on how the shift was running, some guys would like to jump out of there early, go fishing or maybe grab a beer before he got home or whatever have you, the other guy would take the card and click it out back then. But even though that liberties were available, there was never ever a delay in operations because what would happen, if the unfortunate happened, the person who normally wouldn't do a certain job would do that job just to keep the operation going, but that was sort of the perks that we had.

Some real different work structure than the one your dad knew at General Motors, because General Motors had everybody under surveillance all the time.

Yes.

You are working at a shop by 1959 which had 31,000 people in it.

33,000.

Like a medium-sized city in all different mills.

Right. Well, now you enter into another part of the change, and that's technology. When we looked at the safety aspect of it we knew that there were certain procedures that could protect certain things from happening, but with that protection in mind it took technology to put it in place, so that meant a job was no longer necessary. So when you are looking for one issue to resolve another, sometimes you've got to take the outcome of it, too. And in our case with technology being advanced and computers and what have you, we've had operations that would never ever operate unless you had a person there. Now, that's not necessary. In fact, it can have a crew -- it used to be six people on a mill reduced to three. Why? Computer, and then it advances further on down the road for technology. When that happened, too, you've got to understand that the idea of the union was to protect jobs, create jobs, not eliminate jobs. Well, I had the unfortunate experience of being the zone committeeman at the time when a lot of this technology was starting to really grow.

When was this?

Well, it really started in 1975, from '75 on, '80, '90s, biggest part being in the '80s really, the advanced technology. But when these other things started to take place, guys and gals sort of looked at this change coming down, felt hey, that's a God send, not realizing that when that takes place you ain't going to be there to see it because your job is going to be gone. So we would have meetings, I would have department meetings up here trying to make that message as clear as I could I guess to soften the idea that hey, we're going to be losing jobs. That protection that used to be there is not going to be dependable anymore. You can't defend something that's no longer necessary, so we had to take these strong measures, and in my case you could find my name on every bathroom shit house wall in Sparrows Point, because I was wanting these guys to -- saw the road coming real fast at me and realized technology is going to replace jobs, and if nothing else, gain something from it. So I was sort of accused of selling people for jobs and jobs for job classes, and all that sort of gets caught up in the big mess in itself, but it's nothing you can do. I mean reality is technology is the future and competitiveness is strong. If you can't deal with competitiveness, if you don't have tons per hour and manpower per hour was the way it was, and that's what had to happen.

Well, didn't the steelworkers in 1974 create the experimental negotiating agreement which provided the 13 weeks vacation for people to try and soften the technology?

Yes, very keen on your part, because that's exactly what all this was supposed to be placed into. It was supposed to encourage those finally who never had a day off, other than whatever week they were deserved, give 13 weeks, 7 weeks for those junior, but 13 weeks, and the mindset then was if they took this 13 weeks off, they would see a part of life that they missed as a worker and a shift worker and all the years they have been there and they would sort of settle into the idea that they will retire. Well, it worked somewhat, but it backfired on a lot, and then they realized that they have to eliminate the 13 weeks vacation, which they did do, and then a lot of other things started to unveil itself, the consent decree, which was so misunderstood. Keep in mind I'm a representative, I'm a zone committeeman, and when this thing started to come together, what it was created to do was really confusing to a lot of us. To me it was just a blatant effort to cover up something that happened way back when hiring of black employees were going on, and nobody really looked at the matter.

I want to come back to the consent decree. I want to finish this. Did you ever have the 13 weeks vacation?

No. In fact, I was just about qualified for it and they eliminated it that very year.

Did you ever talk to any of the guys who did?

I talked to quite a few of them.

And how did they --

Some of them said that they hated it, they absolutely hated the 13 weeks, and I could understand it. Christ, they spent close to 35 years of their lives in shift work in the conditions that they worked under, and suddenly they got all this free time. They wasn't adjusted for that. I mean they would get four weeks vacation or whatever the scale. Five weeks I think was the most we could get with 20 years, 25 years or whatever it was, but 13 weeks was just a bit too much.

That brings us to one area of people's expectations going to work at Sparrows Point that they were going to work for 30 years and then retire, and did many of them find it difficult to retire for the reason that you just talked about, that the work at Sparrows Point was so all consuming?

Well, I think the retirement part, the thing that really slowed down those thinking of retirement and the reason why there is a availability of retirement is because the money was so good. I mean they were making money hand over foot. I mean there was overtime. In fact, that was another downfall I thought, but they didn't give much worth what I thought, was that working overtime means you are eliminating a job of being hired on, and that became such an obsession with some people that they didn't want to hear that. Hire who for what? The atmosphere started to change strongly because of the opportunity, and I kind of think that guys like myself who would say well, wait a minute, Christ, if you are going to work four or five-day week, and you are going to double every day that week, that's another person that could be working here, that's another member that could eventually be a union member. And there was so much greed in that area that it didn't take off in any way. It became a part of what are you trying to do to me, that's my living. Why do you want to screw up my living? The hell with that person over there or out there. We don't even know who he is or she is or whatever, so it was sort of that kind of atmosphere of greed.

Did that hurt the union?

My opinion? I think it did. I think the memberships dwindling the way it has to this very day is the fact that they filled overtime by allowing overtime, and in fact now that you mention that, even out of the 13 weeks, you could sell back. In my opinion, that was a big mistake, because that really denied others from taking advantage of what they could have gained from that. But yeah, it allowed them to sell it back, and when they said that to me, and I had said again I'm not a vibrative person, but that's the way it is, but I said why in the hell would you take 13 weeks that was negotiated to have a person take and allow them to sell back? That don't make any sense. And if in fact they would sell back a portion of their vacations, they would work in the place of overtime. I mean the whole thing became so damn ironic, it was hard to focus on what we were really trying to accomplish here.

Did some of the guys and women really change their lifestyles as a result of the money? I mean you have always lived in a fairly modest house, neighborhoods.

I think, yeah, absolutely. In fact, there was never a big need for lots of money. You survived, you are comfortable, you've got necessities of life, and I think that's all we were ever looking forward to receiving. Me, again as time goes on and you gain seniority and you are looking at these benefits that the union negotiated in good faith, really took me right where the sun don't shine, because I couldn't believe that they could do to us what they did, and the ironic twist here is the people who -- the manager, the CEO of Bethlehem corporation really was one who stepped out of the picture and allowed this guy Steve Miller who came in with this big I got a plan and the plan is we'll take this place out of bankruptcy, we won't hit bankruptcy, we won't do this. Well, we accepted that with open arms, and we said --

You are retired by this time?

Yeah, I am retired now.

No, then.

Back at the consent decree part.

We're going to go back to that. I don't want to get too far off the track. Let's follow through this people's expectation, they were going to work, have a decent retirement, health insurance.

Absolutely. Right on that coffee table you will see all my grandsons. I've got 42 years I felt under my belt I survived. I felt good. I felt looking down the road the negotiating factor of our pension, our health coverage and everything was all done, it was set. It was in a lock box I thought, and then here in 2001 I retired. Then all hell breaks loose December 18th, 2002. And just prior to that we were hearing these strong rumors, which none of us would believe, you ain't telling me -- even this very day you've got a hard time convincing me even though it's over that Bethlehem Steel doesn't exist. That can't happen, it's impossible, but as we all know it has happened and it's done, it's over, but here I sat after this thing started to take off and with Miller at the head of the helm, started to get into what really was about. His forte was to take over and rape the companies of benefits of the employees, and that's exactly what this Miller did. That's exactly what he is going to do to Delphia. That's exactly what he's going to do to General Motors. Now, I sat back here with a pension that I thought was safe in a lock box as I said, which isn't. My pension is coming from the PBGC, which is a government agency, which still this very day is an estimated pension, which I have no idea of whether I'm going to owe them money. Finalize it and say this is your final pension, this is what you are going to receive until the Lord takes you. I have no idea whether I am going to be on the plus side or the minus side. Unique thing here is we all had a pow-wow with the PBGC and they said right in front of us that look, there is a bright side, if -- now the word is if, if we have underpaid you, we will pay you a lump sum with interest. Yeah, well, don't hold your breath waiting for that lump sum with interest because that ain't going to happen. The other side of that is that if they overpaid us, we will pay them back 20 percent without interest. Big hearts. Now mine goes since 2001, and however they figured that in between 2001 and 2002, December 18th, I have an obligation to pay PBGC since they didn't take it over until December 18th of 2002. I have never gotten a respectful answer of why I'm penalized for that period of time that had nothing to do with the bankruptcy until it was official and the PBGC jumped in, in my mind jumped ahead of creating the pensions.

Well, did you get a year's worth of benefits from Bethlehem Steel then between 2001 and 2002 until when they declared bankruptcy?

Yes, I did. I got a year between that and I had stock, which we all had with our bargaining units, and I was advised to sell that stock because it ain't going to be worth the paper it was printed on. I said you ain't telling me that twice. I don't like the sounds of it because that was part of the reality that was starting to focus in to where yeah, this is really going to happen. I had guys, Christ, call my house here. That phone would ring off the hook with guys saying, "This ain't true, LeRoy, they are bullshitting us; ain't they? This ain't going to happen." I said, "Well, I wish I could sit here and tell you yeah, that's right, it's bullshit, but I can't tell you that."

Is it almost like the end of the world?

It is as far as us guys go. I mean me, here I sit with three beautiful grandchildren, two of them are teenagers, the other one is five year-old who today is with her mother and father at Disney World. In fact, not because of grandpop here, but because they were a little more frugal with their monies to be able to do that. But I look forward to doing that kind of thing. I look forward to have comfort and comfortable living here for what's left. The golden years was supposed to be that, golden years. No, golden years now is horrible. It's frightening. You sit here, I'm on Medicare. You wonder whether Medicare is going to continue to function the way we know it should, but there's going to be problems. Social Security, I've got a Social Security coming in, okay. Well, we're not sure whether Social Security is going to stay stable. There's so much of this in the area of privatizing, it's frightening as hell. Those two areas, Medicare and Social Security are the backbone of the seniors across this country. Privatizing is going to really devastate it. Nobody can bullshit me with that because that's what's going to happen. Their vision is to have the younger workers of this very day finance their own pensions and finance their own health plans. That's their goal, and here we sit out here wondering -- as I said before, when that mail comes today is my pension check going to be there? Is my Social Security check going to be there, or am I going to get a notice from Medicare telling me that they upgraded, which they already $88 now out of my Social Security check for coverage of Medicare, but you have to have health, you have to have the supplement to go with Medicare because it doesn't cover the entire medical needs. So the golden years, just think about it. Here we sit back, we are just as -- I guess just as concerned about what we would have been if I was working week to week, paycheck to paycheck. I'm sort of working paycheck to paycheck monthly now, which is more frightening.

I know you do a lot of activity with the seniors. Do you do lobbying for this stuff?

Yes, I do. In fact, May 10th, the timeframe is not really focused in here, but May 10th we're going to take a bus over to Washington for Medicare under the Alliance of Retired Workers. We're going under that organization to give them support. I think what's happening to us, Bill, SOAR, Steelworkers Organization of Active Retirees, beautiful organization, people are really seen for themselves and it's affecting them. They are not talking about the next door neighbor, it's them, that they are going to be impacting this, this way. That their fixed income is going to be disturbed. Their fixed income is a frightening figure to think, because there's no way you can have additional monies coming in because that's all you got. You can't find a job. If you are, you are silly because you just spent 42 years of your life, me particularly, and I'm looking for another job to survive? Bullshit, I live in America, I paid my dues. Now I expect to be taken care of until the man upstairs says hey, it's your turn.

Have you found that people who were never involved in the union are now showing up to do stuff because of this?

Yeah, absolutely, Bill, that's another good point because we are seeing people who realized and are waking up and said holy shit, it's me, it's not Joe Blow down the road, it's me. I'm finding more people who became couch potatoes absolutely wanting to get up and get answers, and that's healthy. When you have senior people asking questions, that's healthy. When you have senior people who are willing to take the time of what they have left by the way and be heard, that's healthy. So there are a lot of things that are going on out there that are healthy and workable, but it all revolves around politicians.

Do you ever think of running for office?

Well, in honesty I don't think I could handle that. I couldn't handle the mistrust, the misleading and the bullshit that comes out to what you want to hear is what I will tell you. I don't think I can handle that. I think what I can handle is I get little times that I get an article in the paper and it sort of relieves some of the stress, frustration. It's like writing in a diary. I get some things that really bug me and I figure the only way I can get that point out is to get an article in the paper, letters to the editor or call my senator, or I get -- in fact, it's got to a point that I'm on the Internet more than I see my wife. Some of the guys down there at the hall, they all said Christ, if you want to get LeRoy, you better go to his house because he's on the damn computer and he ain't going to get off of it, that kind of thing.

How difficult was it for you to learn how to use a computer?

Well, it was a bit of a challenge because everything we did before was pencil and paper, and it was a challenge, and in fact, I didn't think I would like it, I really didn't. My wife is the one who really got started on it, and she got it basically for games and then it advanced into other things. I happened to go down the cellar here and we've got two computers down there, which I bought one for me, one for her, and I didn't want to tell her I didn't know, so I was trying to just ease my way across to get her to show me what these -- God, I can use a typewriter, always can use a typewriter, but the keys are -- they do different things and you can screw up very easy if you hit the wrong key or be something on the websites, you can really create a problem. So I got down there a couple times, just watched what she was doing. She said, "Well, do you want to learn this?" I said, "I don't want to learn nothing, just go ahead and do what you are doing," but I watched her, and one night I went down there by myself and I got on the web and I was so overwhelmed by things that I could get on the web, the web addresses, the e-mail addresses that you can get and the information. I got more information about our politicians, I got more information about what is going on in Annapolis, I got more information on what's going on in the Senate and the Congress right there firsthand. I don't have to wait for the newspaper the next day, it's right there. I can get into every newspaper in this country and get what's going on and whatever is happening in that country that very day. It just engulfs you, and then the fear of the computer doesn't exist any more. And even at work when the transition of computerization took place, we used to take our scrap buckets, big buckets, big bins I should say, and haul them down there and weigh them. We used to have a scale man there. To show you how advanced that got with technology, they eliminated the scale person and they put a scale there, and all you had to do was hit certain buttons, boom, boom, boom, and it would weigh it, it would give you a card in return of what the weight was and you put the box there and the scrap crane come down and dumped it. You put it back to your place and turned in the weight, and it was all computerized, and they simplified it because they had a red key -- a monkey could have done it. That's what they were dealing with, the transition, and with technology also a lot of guys did leave the mill because they were embarrassed, they couldn't make the mental change from using the keyboard to using the hands on.

These were people who were eligible to retire and the technology in effect drove them out?

Yes, absolutely did. And change is tough for anybody. With me, I'm lucky to be able to experience what I did from -- example, from the Navy from reciprocating engines to jet engines. You went into these different phases, but it didn't scare you because it was a challenge.

Probably was just as much a challenge to leave Collington Avenue and go into the Navy?

Going to Chester Street. Well, it was.

Because you're all a sudden out in the big world.

You were, that's true. It wasn't easy for me to decide to do that with the comforts of home, but dad and I just didn't hit it. We kept on getting into different areas, and I knew he was doing it for the good reasons, he was doing it to make a man out of me, that's what he was doing it for, not to run away from something, just to do that, but then I have my own mindset, I'm a teenager, I'm hot to trot. Dad, you live your life, you want me to live my life, sign the papers.

To kind of follow up on a couple other questions. Was the shift work tough on your family?

Yeah, here at home all my kids were born and raised here, 451 Corner Road, right here.

When did you move here?

Moved here in 1962 I think, '60, '62, somewhere in there.

So you had been there at Sparrows Point about three years?

Yeah.

And you were about a seven-minute drive from the Point here?

From here on the beltway, I could get there in fifteen minutes depending on whatever backup they might have. Oh, yeah, and the shift work did it affect me here, did the union affect me here? If it wouldn't be for my wife, the kids didn't raise themselves, she raised them, because I would be either at work or I would be at the union function, I would be out of town, I would be at Linden Hall, I would be in Pittsburgh or I would be over in Washington, and again we were married 47 years and it takes an immaculate woman to do what my wife has done all this time. Even though we argue, don't get me wrong, it's not a perfect marriage. We argue, we have our difference of opinions, but that's what I love about her, she has her own opinion. I can't influence her. I can tell her certain things, and then if she doesn't agree, that ain't going to happen. If it ain't going to happen, it ain't going to happen. But anyway, with the kids, all of them were educated here. They went to the elementary school here, Middlesex Elementary. They went to Kenwood. Stemmers Run, then Kenwood and then --

Because they could walk?

Yeah.

It's a really old-fashioned existence.

Yeah, and in fact right now -- this is a row home, I don't care what anybody says. Townhouse is what they call them, but it's a rowhome, but the community it's changed, it's changed quite a bit now since then, since when they were brought on this earth, and the closeness that was there and friendship and kids, you didn't have to worry about them, didn't worry about some guy stalking your kids, you didn't worry about dope, you didn't worry about any of that until they got older, then you worried about it because that seemed to be what you always see on the news or in the paper, these kids on dope, this one is taking cocaine and this one, you know.

Well, do you think that there's any relation between the fact that there's 29, 000 jobs not available at Sparrows Point --

I think not only --

And the increase in kids having problems?

Yeah.

Young people.

Yeah. I think the biggest part of it, yes, the basis -- you and I may not be on this earth, but the generation that does exist, jobs itself, availability, is not going to be here because everything we have done in this country has been an outsourcing and we are outsourcing every day of the week. I mean we're talking about -- here, my daughter who worked 12 years at Hecht's, it's no longer a Hecht's, they bought her out. They give her a buyout or she can go to Macy's, but I think it's Macy they are now, she can go there but not where she was originally working at in Whitemarsh. She would be somewhere where they needed her. She is raising a five-year-old. She just can't jump and go. So that change is brought on. Places like Wal-Mart, Sam's, Dollar Stores, I mean people don't realize this is why the economy in this country is going down the tube because we are not exporting anything, we are importing, we are importing more, and when you import, the jobs necessary to make the product isn't needed here because it's done outside. Our own steel industry, our steel industry Mitel, now here is a global giant of steel. He has got operations all around the world. Before it's over with, this person, this family is going to end up absolutely controlling the price of steel, and here America sits when defending this country is going to depend on getting steel from other sorts of the world or other parts of the world. What a challenge that's going to be. Right now Mitel has shut down operations here. Why? Because he has places around the world. Weirton Steel, they shut down the steel side completely. No way down the road are they going to open, reactivate it. It is over. So that's one section. And when that character came here, he made it clear that if productivity becomes a problem, then that place is gone, and he ain't just saying that to threaten them. He said it and meant it, and it's happening. What I see going to come down here again, and this is just me, this isn't standing -- this is me, my wave length, my tunnel -- sometimes tunnel vision, but it turns out that Weirton Steel produces a better tin plate than Sparrows Point. I say -- and my son who works there right now, he's an operator on the halogen lines, I said, "John, don't be surprised if some of your operations here starts shutting down permanently. Do not be surprised." Lo and behold there's no more chrome line down there. Where is it? Weirton. Well, it's just a matter of time before some of the other operations that used to depend on the tin mill to supply them will not be operating there.

Do you think the union should challenge this?

Well, you know, the ironic twist here, Bill, is Weirton is an independent union, independent union. So the affiliation between our union and theirs seems to already have a stumbling block. Now, that probably -- will it ever be done? I don't know, I don't know how to answer that. I don't think so. I think the independency of that union is so strong that that will of theirs is going to control whatever may happen. What I did say and caught heat over this, I did say when them guys went out on strike that our union should go down and show support and strength, I did say that. I caught hell over that. They are nonunion. Well, they are independent union. They are not a nonunion. They are independent union, there are two different worlds there. You've got to merge those worlds. United States Steel Workers of America took the step to make sure the merging and strength of this North America organization is now known as the United Steelworkers. Not America, United Steelworkers. Why? Numbers. That's why. Well, why should we give up -- I'm a hard liner on this, why should I give up what I was raised in, what I basically built my whole union attitude around was the United Steelworkers of America. I'm not going to change that for any reason. I will go to my death with that. In fact, my license plate out there is 30-USWA, United States Steelworkers of America. So I understand compromise, don't get me wrong. I don't want to be confusing here. They do these things to survive, but what they better do, they better go back more strongly towards their retirees and show better  [Interruption}

Go ahead.

Anyway, where was I?

We were talking about life and --

I think the focus of some of the organizations that are starting to crop up like reunion is to bring back the strength of what retirees have. If organized labor doesn't really look stronger at their retirees, I'm talking about our group, we are known as 2609 and 2610, which now is 9477. Our identity is still 2609. Now, I'm not opposed to seeing 2609 and 2610 merge together. I am opposed for them to change their locals. I'm opposed to that. Does that mean anything? I doubt it.

Do you think there was a value to have a local for the steel side and a local for the finishing side?

At that point in time there very much was because of the 30,000 people, but as they lost membership, the merger would have probably been more sensible at the time. But then you've got to enter the other little square called politics. That meaning one local politician group, president all the way down to the executive board, then the other local with their -- somebody has to give up power, and that was not an easy transition to take place or it wasn't an agreeable type thing that had to be decided and was decided, and that's where you ended up with 9477. With us, again I'm trying to emphasize the fact that the foundation of all unions reflect the retirees. They are outspoken, they have experienced it and they walked the walk and they talked the talk, but they are not showing the respect that they should. Our international union has done a great thing in prescription program. They did a great thing there, there's no question about it, but they could do more. They could do much more for the retirees. They have in my mind this hunger to increase membership, but it's like shuttling shit against the tide, it ain't going anywhere because we are outsourcing. So if organized labor doesn't take and absolutely merge all international unions into one strength, then God help us. Today, I will give you a good example of the Latinos. You will see a good example of that because today is to show even the illegal immigrants in this country are part of this that show the strength that they are going to provide, which is manpower, and no telling what that's going to lead to.

Do you find that people who are your age have a greater loyalty to the union and appreciation than younger workers?

Well, yeah, I absolutely do that, too, and I will tell you why. With my own son, he's a young guy and he doesn't see -- at this point now, I'm not saying it's because of me. Dad, I don't see the need for it any more, and that's falls fault in the fact that we entered into this partnership thing that really blowed up in our face. It wasn't actually a partnership. It was just to see how much more they could control, and the union's creation, and if we ever lose the union and lose the organizations, then you are talking about a right to work state, that's what you are talking about, so everybody will be individualized. They will all be me, me, me, and I, I, I, and there will be no you and us, and that's frightening in itself.

So you and your son get into discussions about the value of the union. That must be hot discussions.

Well, sometimes it does. I mean they were all born under the house with a union and they always will be when they step in that door it's union, and we sit down and we have quiet type of political type of conversation. My son's latest was they had a reelection down there, and he was asking my opinion about certain people, and he sees the need to or he did see the need that his old crew were balking at the idea they want to eliminate another job, so they want to sort of slow the work down. My son said dad, I'm down there to make money. If the line doesn't run and I don't make a profit, then what's the sense of me being there? And the conversation went into this direction. I said, "Well, John, I understand your plate, I understand what we are all looking at down the road, but let me tell you what, a crew is what it means. A crew works together, it's teamwork. If you can't work with your crew, you are going to become all alone, you're going to be out on that island by yourself, so if you want to live that way, that's your choice, you are a man, make that choice." Well, what do you think? I think well, John, I think you ought to do what that team wants to do and become that team player with the union. I'm not talking company. I'm talking union, I'm talking about your own crew. If you lose credibility with your crew, then you are going to lose all respect that you have gained. So my suggestion to you is go with the crew, not go with the flow, go with the crew, and he did I learned later.

Let's go back in time then. There's a couple of topics we want to pick up. One of them is the consent decree. I want to hear about your experience in the union. Your dad was in the union when he was at General Motors?

Yes, he was. In fact, he was what they call -- didn't call them zonemen.

Committeeman.

Committeeman, that's right, he was a committeeman and --

Now did he come from a union background? It's fun to follow back and see where did it start.

How far back? I can't really say he did.

How long had he worked at General Motors?

He was down there 38 years.

So he was there when General Motor organized?

Yes.

In 1937.

In Burling Highway. No, no, in 1937 he worked at the shipyard and he worked --

So he went to General Motors after the union really came in.

Four years or so, and the reason he got out of the shipyard is because he fell down a lot of holes and he lived to be able to physically live and work again, and he ended up going to General Motors because of that.

So you've got a family background, we've had the experience of learning from Ed Plato the first week of the strike what was going to go on. After the strike then you came back, and did you see the committee people, Don Kelner, Plato, all those guys, Neal Crowder?

Well, with Neal, Neal worked the CA line. He was an operator on the CA line.

And a CA line stands for what?

Continuous annealing.

And what does that line do?

Well, what it does is heats the metal. It's a coil form and it heats the metal so it can be skin milled on the skin mills. It's a process, a metallurgical process is what it does. Neil by the way because I was on the tractor that was feeding the coils to the CA line, and Neil would be on the other end, the operator would be -- well, he would be on the middle, and a couple of nights I would walk down and because we have a breakdown waiting for the electrician or the mechanics, and we would talk, and he would talk about the strength and the unity and all that was necessary. Remember, I'm just coming out of the Navy and experienced half of what I have seen here. I'm still overwhelmed by the hugeness of the operation. It's just a whole new world when you walk into that mill, the things that go on around you. It just took a lot to adjust to the idea that that exists. So Neal and I would talk, and he would tell me about the need of being together and all, and I had spoke to him about the issue that was starting to really surface was the black and white issue, and then Neil had said a few things that he felt that they wanted and should never have been that way, but at that time that's the way things were, and the thing that -- well, he was more focused on was to assure management that they wasn't going to dominate the employee. Then the union took its hold and did what it had to do and gain recognition, which grew out of people -- if it had not been for people like Neil who was in the mills, not out there on the gates handing out literature. He was in that mill, took jeopardizing his job by the way when he went out to solicit and promote the idea of being a union member. Then we talked about other things and then he really got me interested in being part of the union like Marianne Wilson, she was another one who was a very strong person and people's rights and female's needs and the whole nine yards with that. That atmosphere between the two of them, plus others like Dave Wilson and Harry Spedden and Kellner, which I've got a story I can talk about with him and I through the years that differ, different things, and so many guys. Steve Hamilton was a tractor steward, black guy tractor steward. Steve Griffith was a tractor steward. Robin -- there's so many guys and gals that you cross as you got older and seniority went across their trails, but my real desire was to see change. My real desire was first off to become president of that local union somewhere down the road, which never happened. I failed it. I tried. I stepped out of what we call the BJ zone, which was a caucus, which I was at one of time the chairman of. Got that political bug about I want to have a stronger voice, I want to be able to make my point and be heard, and I felt the position of president would do that. So anyway, as we move along with this and guys like Kelner influenced me getting involved.

So what did you do to get involved?

Well, committees. I started off with a committee. I was asked to be a blood bank committee person, and I said sure, I've got no problem with that. So as time went on I become the blood bank chairman, and then I become a trustee of Local 2609, and then that give me a good feel for the inside politics of what organized labor really leads into, they are different than the politician on the corner, because you want to do things that make you identifiable so when your time comes for reelection people remember who you were compared to who is challenging you, that kind of thing. Then I wanted to --

And who was the president of the local at that time?

Wilson.

Dave Wilson was the president back then. And who was the district director? Al Atalla?

District director? Before me -- it wasn't Al Atalla -- ain't that awful.

Padeletti?

Yeah, Primo Padeletti, that's who it was, and then Wilson challenged him down the road.

Because this was big time politics.

Oh, two local unions.

The district was big and the locals were big.

Yes.

And very contentious.

In fact, our two locals, 2610 and 2609, were so strong in their beliefs separately, it got to a point where the parking lot down there, they put a chain up there. It's attitude, it's all about attitude, and then things started to mellow out and then the chain came down and some of the other things that were unmentionable were resolved, but all through this, Bill, all through this gaining this experience and you are actually walking the walk, you are right there seeing things being decided on, the directions to be sort of measured out, what have you. I will never forget the strike. We came back to prevent a strike. We were all in Pittsburgh, John Cirri, me, Kellner, and there was one other guy. Frank Rossi I think it was.

This would be what year?

This is 1985, '85 or '86. We avoided a strike, and the reason it was so important to avoid it because our own language in the contract prevented it.

And this was at a time, a very tough time in the steel industry, concession bargaining?

Absolutely.

Controversy, Lloyd McBride had a heart attack over it.

It got such good coverage on this ourselves, because all this was all happening, the answers that would be easily gotten weren't, so your reactions was immediate, you done what you needed to do and do it now, and I questioned it. Just do it. But we were all up there in negotiations when this took place, while this was going on. So we all jump in my car and I'm beating all back 70, coming down 70 through West --

Breezewood?

Breezewood, yeah. We used to stop in Breezewood restaurant there. We would buzz on down. Anyway, I got stopped by a State Police. In fact, we are going down there, one cop is under the bridge, he's got a camera going on. Somebody in the back seat said, "LeRoy, there's a cop." I said, "Piss on that cop, we've got to get going," and I'm looking in the rearview mirror, I don't see him. While I'm looking in the rearview mirror, half a mile down the road here's a guy that walks right out in the middle of the highway, and I think it was John Cirri, "Christ, there's a cop." "Where? There ain't nobody there." Boom, both feet on the brakes like this, I'm fishtailing, and holy shit. So he pulls me over the side, and he comes up to me, he said, "Where are you going, pal? What's the fire?" I said, "Hey, we've got a strike. We've got to get back to Baltimore. We've got to go now." "You ain't going anywhere," blah, blah, blah, and I says -- in fact, I don't know her husband, her husband was the lieutenant or captain of the State Police. Christ, I can't think of her name. She used to be president of 9116.

Not Flo Jones?

No. Her husband was a State Police lieutenant or captain, and then I'm throwing his name out there, and the guy says to me, "Hey, let me tell you something first off. The person you are naming, this ain't his district," and I'm thinking to myself of all the luck, ain't even his damn district, and he warned us, too, because he was there with his wife, warned us about coming back that way. So anyway, I get a ticket and we get in here --

What was the strike over? You heard -- somebody called Pittsburgh and said we had a situation?

Had to do with job eliminations is what it had to do with, and then we all gave back -- it was quite a confusing time because we couldn't get any definite answers of what our next direction because we agreed not to strike. This was all internal, this was done internally. So we managed to be able to control that, and we convinced the company not to lock the gates, don't create the lockout.

Were there people out on the street?

Yeah. North Point Road had them closed going into the gate going into that direction.

And this was like committee people in 2609?

No, these were the people, the members themselves, and we had to go down there and identify us to them because they wasn't convinced that the guys that were talking to them weren't company just to convince them. We had to go down there and convince them look, this is not the route to take, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it ended up working itself out to where no one was penalized. The company did throw in our face about the cost of operations and all that, which is normal. I said well, the point is that there may be a loss of tonnage, but you've got the operation back, so if you want to stir some shit up again and get some reaction like we got here we ain't going to control, then you take that chance.

You must have followed this transit strike with some interest?

Yeah, I did.

Sounds similar.

Well, you know it's ironic, some of these things that do take place with strikes and who better knows than the person on that floor who is doing the work knows what's happening, and then when things seem to not quite go its way or agree to, you've got to react. If you don't react, then there's no reaction and then you are just going to roll over and play dead, you can't do that. Today though things have truly changed, they have truly turned around. This ain't going to go off too well others who are going to hear this tape, but my opinion with the union seemed to be rolling over a bit. Instead of taking a strong stand, they realized that it's like the waterfall, it's going to continue to come over the fall because you ain't going to be able to get over the waterfall. Outsourcing is the damnation of organized labor in this country and it better wake up and see it. The AFL-CIO with the split that took place there, that was the worst thing that could ever happen. It's just like the controller, the air controller strike, worst thing that could ever happen because the AFL-CIO would not support those who were not affiliated under the same umbrella of the AFL-CIO. That hurt more than it helped. Strength of the organized labor is numbers, numbers make it count. People who support movement for what it's there for, and what is it there for? It's there for guys like me who retired looking forward to where they spent their life, knowing that they are going to have at least comfortable rest of their lives to live out what there may be. I sit in front of this camera right now with asbestos. It's scary. It's a slow degrading disease that eventually will take its toll. When? Can't tell that. It could be tomorrow. Do I have sufficient signs? Like you don't see no oxygen bottle yet. That's not here. Is it going to be there? If I live long enough to need it, yeah, it will be there. That's like a lot of us, and I'm sort of jumping around here, but to go back with the older guys I see every third Wednesday of the month that were there before any precautionary things were installed are faced with and they are still here. That just boggles my mind. The raw chemicals and the asbestos was much more raw and more fluent in the air, but they are here and they are in their 80s, and their mindset, their mind is still together, it ain't all marbles in there yet, but there will be down the road. We all face that Alzheimer's, dementia, all that other shit that comes with it.

Well, let me just finish up about then your activities in the union. You became a committeeman?

Yes. See, you get me talking on these trails, Bill, you've just got to take a chance.

Well, that's all we're doing. I'm loving it.

Once in the union, my desire was to become the shop steward, tractor steward representative, which there were those that didn't like my attitude for some reason. I don't know why I was labeled a redneck, but I'm not a redneck. And for a lot of things that I got into there was resentment, don't let him on the committee, don't let him do this. I found my way, so I went ahead and did what I did and confronted management on issues and I confronted my own brothers and sisters on issues they didn't like to hear, but that was the reality of it. Ain't no sense bullshitting it. This is the way it is and this is what you are faced with. You missed time, you face the penalty. Is that good? Is that bad? You are my union, I pay you to protect me. No, if you don't do your old job, then you are going to find your own route. Here's the rules. You live by the rules. If they violate your rules, we burn them. You violate their rules and they will burn you. That's as simple as the philosophy was. Then I moved on up into the secretary of the grievance committee after I become the BJ zone committeeman, which in that day was a powerful position to hold, so much so that Kellner and I used to go head to head because he used to be -- not used to be, he always was very protective of the 449. That was his group, backup gang, so it was sort of --

Explain for the people who are not familiar with the steel industry what do you mean the backup gang.

Well, with the backup gang --

Because he was a pipe -- worked in the maintenance shop, millwright.

He was a millwright, and his millwright skills was to deal with big huge backup rolls, and they had collars on them. It's hard to explain it without showing a picture of it, but they were big rolls and they had to pull the collars off of them, and that's what these millwrights do.

And the big rolls pressed the steel?

That's right. You have a big set of rolls and then you have the small rolls. The big set presses from the lower part and then the upper rolls press from the top, and you set the different gauges.

Don described it once as like an old-time washing machine so people visualize what it looked like.

You see that's exactly a good comparison.

They are immense rolls.

Yeah, and if ever an opportunity -- there are many movies out there, you can see operations of that. It's just you take -- they can roll steel as thin as the hair on your head or as thick as the beams you see out here. So I mean the operation is something else, but Kelner and I, he had been his own committeeman before, and he stepped up to recording secretary and then stepped up to president. Well, there was a lot of other little movements that went on, and a guy by the name of Ray Pazinski who was the zoneman before me. He was an operator on the prep lines. Now I was satisfied with being the tractor steward representing the tractor department, I was satisfied with that, gained experience and meeting people and situations, and you sort of adjust to the needs that you have to put a focus on, the things that interests you most and what concerns the member and what they expect to see or hear from you and what you can do and what you can't do. How the company respects you for one thing, as well as your own members. That was critical and important. So Pazinski one night, I'm working 3:00 to 11:00, I'm putting coils on the prep line, number five prep line by the way, and I backed the tractor up. I'm sitting over there under a heater, big ass heater, not putting any heat out, but it's there. So you are sitting there waiting for the coil to come through the units and you pick it up, take it to its destination, wherever it had to go. Pazinski says to one of the feeders, his feeder -- there was a scaleman, feeder and the operator, besides the baler operator who was down on floor there with the baler taking the edges of the stuff that they were slitting and rolling into a bale. He said to one of them guys, "Tell LeRoy over there that he couldn't win dog catcher," and the guy says I don't think you should say that. I had no idea for a zoneman, I really didn't, and the guy came over there, I'm sitting there reading the contract with the old one, and I'm looking at him, he says, "Hey, LeRoy." I said, "What?" "Do you know what Ray said?" I said, "I don't care what Ray says." He said, "You couldn't beat him in a dog catcher race." "He didn't say that." "Yeah, he did." That's bullshit. I'm telling you, so he walked away, done his thing and come out and got some water. I got off the tractor and I walked up to him, I said, "Ray, you are the zoneman now. You've been the zoneman for the last almost three years now with the election coming up. Why do you want to make a stupid comment like that? What's your problem with me?" He said, "I'm just telling you, pal, you can't beat me in your best day." I said, "I don't even give a shit about the zone committee job, I don't care. It doesn't bother me, but you know what, you just bothered me now and I'm going to take that job and I'm going to win that job." And then this is weeks and weeks before nomination. So I belonged to the BJ caucus, which at that time Kelner was chairman of the caucus.

And BJ stands for what?

Doesn't stand for anything. That's what they did during the war. Each one of the operations down there had designated alphabetical letters. They didn't mean anything. I can add something here, but I won't, but BJ was accused of being, especially me, and I don't think it would be receptacle I don't think.

Okay.

I can give you a smaller version of it, big joint, and then it gets a little more explicit. So anyway, as time goes on and I'm getting on walking around to different departments and getting the support of my own caucus for the zone job, which we have -- that's another unique position of organized labor within its own local units, the politics internally. You have different zones. In our case we had the different zones, the BP, the BH, the BJ, and there was one other -- well, BR was another one, and each one of those had zonemen, and the zonemen had assistant zonemen, and then they had shop stewards. It was a real structure, and they had only -- within the local structure they had committee jobs that each zone had a representative on whatever committee that was going on, like the blood bank committee and trustees and stuff like that.

Contracting out?

Contracting out was a -- yeah, it was hell --

Civil rights?

Civil rights was a big one. Women of steel. There were so much internal things that were going on, and just like any politics, any politics, you've got to watch what you say and who you say it to, because if that person just took a dislike to you, they would pass that word around about something you said and you would never have an opportunity to defend it to the person that they are going to repeat it to. So as time went on anyway -- had a sufficient number and later on that day --

What was the campaign like; do you remember that?

Yeah, it was a real Donnie Brook type of campaign, mud slide, mud slinging and finger pointing and all that kind of stuff, and the biggest thing that used to come out of Ray's group was that damn redneck from Baltimore, meaning me. I could never --

And where was he from?

From here, from Highlandtown by the way, and he was a good pool shooter. So like I say a lot of times the camaraderie I think grew stronger and stronger when we would stop off after shift at the local bars down there, which would be shooting pool or playing darts or just rolling steel like I said before, and Pazinski would be in there. Nine ball used to be our game. Three fingers Joe, I don't know whether that rings a bell with anybody, but he was one of the pool players in the state championships years ago and he would hustle down on North Point Road, Dundalk sometimes, too. Anyway, we got to playing this nine ball game and Ray was in there and he is a good shooter, good shot, he would make shots you wouldn't believe, and here I've got three sheets to the wind and he's on the table and he comes up to me and hits me on the shoulder and he says, "LeRoy, I will tell you what I will do. Play a nine ball game, ten dollars on the nine and five dollars on the five. If you win, the election ain't an issue with me because I won." I said, "Well, that's good of you, brother Ray. Glad to hear that. Now let's get back to the nine ball. I'm not a good shooter as you are," but nine ball sometimes becomes a lucky game, things that you think you are going to do don't happen. "Well, I ain't asking. Do you want to play or not?" I said, "Well, I will tell you what, Ray." Barmaid comes up and I said, "Come here, hon. I want you to do something for me please. Here's $15. Ray, give me your $15 on the table on that bar," so we go down there --

This is when $15 was worth something?

Christ, yes, and he flips his quarter, I get the break. I break the nine ball. (Interruption.)

Back to the pool game.

Back to the pool game. I get up, I get the break, I hit the ball, the nine ball goes right in the corner pocket, ten bucks, bang. I take a couple more shots, choke up on a few shots because it looked so easy and I choked up, I was excited. Ray gets up there and bing, bing, bing, bang. Now comes the five ball. And he looks at me and he says, "Tell you what. $20 on the five ball and I will bank it side pocket." Shooting two balls from the bottom to the top and he's going to make the five ball. I looked at him, I said, "I will tell you what, Ray. I will take that bet, but before I take that bet, bring your 20 bucks here and put it on top here and I will put mine," which I didn't have at the time. So he put his $20 there. He didn't look for me to put mine there, right. I just folded it like that. Gets there, takes a little bit of this and chalk and all this other bullshit. He hits it, he missed. I said, "I will tell you what. I will take the five ball because now it's in the middle of the table and I will bank it on the right corner, lower right corner for five more dollars." He says to me, "How about payday?" I said, "You're on." I didn't have my 20, remember that, so I went boom, hit it, went in. It went and fell in. He thought his whole world caved on him because all the guys around the bar said, "Yeah, he took the king down, he took the king down." Anyway, I don't know why I even got on to that, but between the political end of this thing and the desire of people who wanted to represent the union and have a voice in the union, this kind of thing is what really created the stress, you know, besides the basic part of Neil and Marianne, and Ed Bartee was another instrumental person. He used to work on the halogen lines way before my son even got a job down there. Ed Gorman, I mean these guys are all retired. Eddie is still -- Eddie Bartee is still very active.

Do you remember a guy named Klausenberg?

The name is familiar. We have a Hans Klemish.

No, this has been years ago. Chris Lucas?

Chris Lucas, I remember Chris Lucas. I.W. Abel, I remember some of those guys, yeah, but closer to home there was a couple -- well, like I say it's a fact that they are right up front and sometimes they are not, that were instrumental. Len Shindell, he was a little confusing at first because some of his points of view was more like a communist point of view than it was of a solidarity group point of view, but as time went on I think he -- Lenny was misunderstood by a lot of people. His attitude towards things were not influenced too much by what was going on here. It was actually what was going on down at the end of the road here with him and he would give you that that's the way it is. Do you want to hear the way it is or you don't want to hear it? He will tell you like it is. He ain't going to soft shoe it. He always impressed me with that. He was the zoneman for the coal mill. Jim Romano was the zoneman for the hot mill. Larry Farinetti was the zoneman for the VH, and I'm the zoneman for the BJ, and George Lacy was the zoneman for the BP, which was the pipe mill at that time, and we all would be up there for a grievance meeting at the hall. I'm the secretary of the grievance committee and Romano was the chairman of the grievance committee. We would bring up issues and complaints and resolving this or doing that.

Why don't you explain for people who are not familiar with what goes on at a grievance screening committee meeting.

Well, with the grievance procedure, each employee -- each member I should say would have a complaint, a grievance about an issue, either it be overtime or it would be unsafe condition or some kind of a penalty that was not properly presented.

A discipline, absenteeism or bad work or something like that?

And sometimes we would get into issues as sensitive as alcoholism and drug abuse in some cases, and we would -- these grievances, we would go through the procedure, the shop steward on turn, first off that's where it begins. They complain to the shop steward, and the shop steward proceeds to see whether it's a legitimate complaint, and then if he thinks so he will file a grievance and then it will come into what is known as step two is what we deal with in step two with management. So before we meet with management, we would all take these grievances together the day before and we would talk about them and what has merit, what we don't think has merit, what you are going to present, what I'm going to present, and we would have an agenda for the next day because that's how you had to operate here, you just couldn't bring in some spontaneous thing. It had to be on the agenda. We would meet with the company on step two, and then step three -- I'm jumped too fast. Step two is where we meet with superintendents individually, each zoneman would take their concerns to their respective superintendents, and if they didn't come out with a resolution of it, they would then push it to step three, which was the management representatives and the union representatives discussing the issues. And if in fact we couldn't get this resolved at that step three level, then we would arbitrate issues. Then it would go to the staff, which would be our representatives.

Pittsburgh?

In this case it would be Bill Nugent. In the subdistrict office would be Bill Nugent, who did a terrific job in all the years of all this transition taking place. Just like David, it was a unique situation where Dave Wilson was sort of somewhat from the old school coming into the changeover school with technology and all these other things that had to be dealt with. Dave ended up being the District Director and retiring from that after a few years; in fact, I think two terms as a director. But all this time that's gone by, the changes in the mill started to really show up. You could see what this really meant with the technology and the job eliminations, which become an ugly word, but job eliminations were necessary for technology.

Do you think that had impact on the fact that Bill Nugent didn't get elected to succeed Dave?

Yeah, I think that and I think there was a lot of locals within the district that were disappointed for things that couldn't be dealt with. There was no change. I was saying to you earlier we had technology that was taking over the jobs, there was no defense. You couldn't argue an issue in front of an arbitrator if technology is put in the place because of a safety precaution, and basically that's what ended up. We used to have two people on the bailer under the prep lines on the shear floor. They would take care of the scrap and make sure that the scrap was staying lined up and all. Well, they eliminated one. We argued that issue, we took it before an arbitrator because it's unsafe to have that person down in the hole by himself. Well, the company argued the issue of the fact that they had a camera that the operator could watch, but our argument was the operator has got all this other responsibility when the unit is running to be able to flick his eyes over here and see what's going on while the scrap is being baled up. He is watching the unit, he is watching the shearing of it, the slitting of it. In our opinions, it was just impossible for this person to be so flexible looking all over the place down at the teleprompter here to watch who is down in the hole and watch the sheet and watch the feeder on the other side, it's too demanding. Well, after the arbitrator heard the issues and took the issues, a week or two later, maybe couple weeks later his decision was in favor of the (inaudible). So there again issues -- that may have been disappointing, but that was a guideline, and guys in my mindset saw that being the issue and thought to myself well, if they take these other measures of safety precaution and they fall on that term safety precaution and that eliminates a job, I don't have much of a defense to argue that. Just like the hat issue, you couldn't argue that. You couldn't argue the safety glasses. You didn't wear them before. Well, you didn't before, but now it's a safety issue and the company is protecting its employees. You can't argue that. So all these things are learning steps in dealing with issues, and you wouldn't get that out of a book.

Did you often find that the people who never came to the meetings or involved were your biggest problem as a zone guy?

Well, I found criticism from those kind, yeah, sure. In the locker room, I would be in the locker room, they would bad mouth this issue or that issue, and my only response to that was hey, if you wanted to say what you are saying to me, why don't you come up the hall and say it to everybody up there so we all understand where your disgust is. But my disgust is you don't even have the decency to come to the meeting to understand what the whole issue is. You are just getting bits and parts. That by the way, Bill, that kind of an issue is dealt with every day. It depends on the guy's attitude or the girl's attitude or this one here is being treated better than me. Some of these are petty things, but they are things that they need attention on. If you ignore it and just take it as an attitude that hey, that's immaterial. It isn't immaterial. It's material to them and you've got to deal with it, and I felt if I tell them just like I felt and I tell them this is where you are, then that resolves the issue. Either makes me the bad guy or at least I'm understood. That's the only point that I ever try to drive, and my personality -- I don't have what you would call a soft personality because my dad didn't bring me up that way.

Do you think a soft personality could survive as a zone person?

Absolutely not. You know why? He would be kidding himself, because you know what your limitations are. You better know. If you are going to make decisions that affect job eliminations and the repercussions that that takes -- you would not believe when I tell you some of the things that I agreed to, and even my own representatives were against me to do that, and the reason they were is because politically it wasn't favorable or the safer thing to do. Hey, that LeRoy, that redneck LeRoy over there, he is giving jobs away, I can't take that stand, and my only defense when I would get up and give my zone report, I would make it that this is open eyed, clear as it could be said, what repercussions will happen, when it will happen and why. Did it get accepted? No, of course not. I joined the union to be protected and blah, blah, blah, and then if -- the thing I learned by the way, Bill, is why argue first off on the mill floor, on the union floor with a person who is already angry about an issue he don't totally understand or she don't totally understand. I don't give them that courtesy to do that, because all that does is enrages others who are sitting there quiet, and then suddenly they become ignited, and then they all get in there, and then before you know it you've got a Donnie Brook going on.

Any simple grievance reflects the whole steel industry, reflects technology, it's a much more complicated thing, and today it's not just Bethlehem Steel, it's middle, which is you just said it's global.

My God, yeah.

It's a much more complicated landscape that you are working in as a union rep.

As a union rep., even as a director or even the president of international unions, the wider scope is much more challenging, and the only army, and I use the term army that a union has is its members. If you don't have the numbers, then you are not going to win the argument, and then the argument you've got to make sure it makes sense. I mean why argue against an issue that's going to protect human life, because you get another aspect, some other group that comes in there that your sensitivity, you are too politically oriented or you are doing it for you and not for them. It's all complicated. Is there an easy solution? I don't see an easy solution. I don't think any one of us can sit down any time without a difference of opinion. If that difference of opinion never happens, then God help us there, too. We need difference of opinion, we need to be able to bounce off other ideas and see whether they are feasible and whether they are not, and it all rolls into what are we here for, what is the union here for. The union's prime function is to protect the jobs. (Interruption.)

I'm with LeRoy McClelland, I'm at his house, and it's May 1st. So we were just finishing up here talking about the different activities in the union. I want to ask you while you were the committee person that the steelworkers took a very controversial direction, they want to this partnership agreement. Can you tell us a little bit about how you felt about that and how it worked out?

Well, when we first got introduced to this, the International got us all together --

Do you remember what year this was?

Honestly --

Roughly.

Roughly, I would think it would be in the latter part of the '70s, '70s close to '80s. Anyway, the International sent a representative down and they were telling us about some of the things that were going to come about, about partnering and teamwork and all that other things. We have been exposed to so many of these campaigns that the company put on. We had one that we really made in bad taste, left a bad taste in our mouths was  Where is Joe. That's a campaign was similar to what they were trying to I guess reenergize with this partnership.

And what was that campaign?

That was job efficiency and do more than the job calls for and that kind of thing. Well, I could sense it back then that what they are leading into was that you are not just a tractor operator, you are not just a prep line operator, you are also whatever is needed to be done in the area type of person. That's what they were really driving to get out of that, and that was eventually leading into job elimination. Now, the way they did it from the beginning was sort of slowly. Then I guess the real plus in management side was they went into the mill and they got to talking to the guys and the gals on the mill floor, which made them feel ten foot tall because management is talking to them. Here's the plant manager, here's the superintendent, so this is exposure that they never had in the past, so that was sort of winning them over to use the term like that, was winning the guys and gals over. "What you call it talked to me." When I confronted that, I said to a couple of people, I said well, he talked to you, you talked to them. Didn't you talk to them? Just because they talked to you, you feel ten feet tall? That don't make sense to me. They come to talk to you because you have something they need and which you have that they need is performance, and the more performance that you do and more profit and production that goes out, that's why you are knowing their name now because they know your element of what you do, how important it is for you to be that gainful, productive, profit person to make profit for the company, which by the way is not a bad thought because if the company fails, we fail, so it's hand in hand, but don't be confused about the partnership of it because that has a way of sort of absorbing you totally into the management philosophy, which is profit versus safety, so you sort of have to weigh that as it went on. With creating quality circle teams, which was another big strong effort on management's part, that was an effort in my mind to take away the control of the zone committeemen and the shop stewards. That was to have the individuals, who by the way put me in mind of Duke who I was telling you before was definitely against the union, was a nonunion employee, and it brought me back to thinking about the way Duke thought individually, me, me, me type of thing instead as a team is supposed to work with each and everybody together supporting everybody's purpose in looking after everybody. But the partnership end of it got into just what it was designed to do. It ended up in the job eliminations. It made some people feel that they are doing more with less people, and that was a frightening feeling for me to see because they were not arguing the fact that they are going to not only sit there and -- not sit there, I shouldn't use that term, but stand there watching their operations while the mill is running. You've got some idle time, take the broom and sweep over there and sweep over here, and they did this without any resistance. That was scarey to me because the laborer who was on turn wouldn't be needed, and I would try to get that point across. Sometimes the resentment was LeRoy, look, I know the superintendent, I know him and he knows me and this is the way I work. It was sort of I guess an overwhelming experience for some of the people to get to meet upper management, and it turned out to be a little more frightening to me to see the outcome of it, and the outcome was what we see today is job elimination, and so that became technology, and then before you know it here we are -- right now I think it's something like 2500 people there including management. I think that's what's down there now out of 33,000 that was there at one time. So change is inevitable, it's there. You may not like to hear some of the things that are being said, but the competition, globalization. If we don't really learn what that really means in America here, we're going to end up being the American warehouse for foreign products, and again I already fall back on this, I fall back on the fact I don't know any other English than the English that I was born and raised with, but I am confused when I hear some Spanish someone standing in front of me in line is spouting off, whether they are talking about me or what they are doing, I don't understand, but they understand us, and that's frightening in itself, too.

Well, one of the things did the partnership give you problems with the union because you then had bargaining unit members disciplining other bargaining unit members?

Well, see, that's the only part -- I guess I missed that. When the team playing thing started to evolve, it did create that. It created a finger pointing thing of this guy or this gal, they ain't doing this really the way it should be or they are taking off. It turned out to be a type of telling on you. If you would walk off the job and sneak a discussion with somebody you fished with the day before, that person would automatically tell the superintendent. It was a tell-all type of thing it started to create, and it didn't go off by the way and I'm sure you're aware of it by now that the partnership did go because they lied to start with. Management didn't do the partnership in which it was designed it would be done in. Each had a different method for what they wanted to do and that was to divide the union itself and its representatives in this -- I guess its influence. So I think the old saying is that if you can't beat them, join them. So management found these programs to be a joinable type of thing to win over what some people felt was -- I still feel that its own purpose wasn't to gain anything out of it other than to take control of their own employees away from the union's philosophy of job protection.

So it really is an ongoing battle between management and the union for the hearts and minds of the members?

Yeah, and when you say something like that, you are also saying something in the direction of -- it's always kind of a battle between employee and management. Now the company is not going to profit if they don't have harmony, and harmony ain't going to be gotten to when management lies to the employees, and that seems to be their forte. They lie, they don't mean what they say. An example of that is just why I am sitting here right now is that benefits that were in good faith negotiated were not lived up to. They knew and they had to know that Bethlehem was headed for bankruptcy years before it really went to bankruptcy, but who better than Bethlehem had all the income of monies flowing and cash going out. They had them. They also knew by the way the lifespan of their operations, their machinery. They knew they were coming to closely a wearout level to where they had to look at new improvements. They ignored improvements. They took opportunities where monies that were being gained could have been invested, and they didn't do that. They went into other fields and projects and they failed. And because they failed, we suffered, and today again there is no contract, no contract in this country that's protecting its employees or its retirees for benefits negotiated if they hit the level of Chapter 11. Now, my point here is that if the organized labor doesn't find some kind of language that protects that company from pulling that kind of protection from themselves so they can get away from legacy clause, they are all going to end up like we have ended up here today. One other thing, the fact that the company went bankrupt doesn't necessarily mean they are not making a profit today, because they are under a different name without any legacy overhead. Now, that should not have been permissible here in this country. If another -- I don't care where they are from. If they are going to buy out an organization, then they have got to pick up the tab that put that operation there, and that's the kind of language of the law or legislation that should be developed and designed and put into effect. Now if you want to shut Sparrows Point down, shut it down. They didn't shut Sparrows Point down. They just crippled it here and there, but they took the biggest cost that they promised these people who are out here now away from them, and that was benefits negotiated in good faith.

Let's talk a little bit about one point I want to get to before we talk about the consent decree, which I think will be a very long discussion. Tell us about the women coming in the mill. What changes did that -- how did guys take to that?

Well, you know, I wasn't there during the world war changes where women operated tractors and cranes. They did everything but operational on the mills. For whatever reason they didn't get on the mills themselves, but they were tractor operators, they were crane operators and they were tin flippers. They weren't inspectors at that time. They were tin flippers, which is just --

But that was considered temporary because of the war?

Yeah.

They were like the Rosy riveters?

Exactly, that's a good term, because they were the Rosy riveters, and that was the function they took, but then it got halted and it took on a different prospect. When I got there in '59, they used to have separate restaurants for the women, facilities naturally for the women, and the guys weren't permitted in certain areas in the mill where the women were and that's just the way it was. The change that I seen, the only change I seen was where the shear floor -- not the shear floor as much as the tin flipping operation itself was eliminated. It was eliminated. This is part of your job elimination where so many things are starting to come out of the closet is they designed this coil data recorders, which were inspectors, the girls that would get up in the booths while the coil was running and inspect that steel, and when that phase came into effect, that eliminated the sorting room, they didn't need the sorting room any more. That didn't happen overnight, it took a little while, but then the operations started to be eliminated, and the next thing full coil forms at Sparrows Point was eliminated to square box form, which was the square deal. They ended up eliminating the shear floor period totally, there was no shears operating anywhere in the mill. There were something like 24 shears.

And the shears would cut the rolls?

Cut the rolls.

To length, to a specific length.

They went from what I call box steel to coil form. Now, by making that transition, that change, that eliminated all that operation right there, and it's hindsight now because if you only had been able to see that beforehand you wouldn't have made this change happen, you would have had other courses to take, but nobody saw that come that way. It was protecting profit over productivity and that phase of terminology. Superintendent Franko Salona, he was a piece of work. Franko Salona came from Burns Harbor, came down here and became the superintendent of tin mill.

When? Do you remember what year?

That was in the '70s. When he came down there and took over, the first thing he did was come out into the tin mill and he saw these scrap bales, which in his mind instantly was money, look at all that wasted steel. It's going to be scrap and sent over and melted down, and the first thing he did was demand that there be less bales of scrap, and there were precautions that were supposed to be taken that that oversize slitting or narrow slitting, it wasn't necessary to slit so narrow. The narrower the better, put it that way. The narrower of the steel being split the better because that's less waste in his opinion. No one really knew what was really intended behind the mindset of his thinking until after the shears were eliminated, because down the road he opened up an operation that took our pups, that was steel that would no longer be accepted by the customer. He would take the pups, and he would do exactly what number ten shear used to do, and that was to cut the pups up for scraps and melt it, that kind of thing, and that's what he did, and then he retired. You can see -- I mean this guy, his point of vision was well ahead of itself because I guess being exposed out there in the steel world itself and the greed that exists out there and the profit levels of steel productions for steel companies, he saw that and he took advantage it. So he retired, he's got an operation down there making money hand over foot over scrap pups that we used to make money. We sent them to him now, or they did then. I don't know what they are doing now. They probably seen the same thing and they said the hell with this, we're not going to do that.

He started his own company?

Yes, he started his own company and then retired.

Inside the Point or at a different location?

Different location, and there were other concerns about some of the parts that were being sort of vandalized, whether that was going to his operation because of the cost of material and spare parts. But all this started to take place, Bill, from the '70s and rolling into the '80s, and we are rolling into something that was really mishandled in my opinion, and I was crucified for my opinion, was the consent decree, if you want to get into that.

I do. Let's go back to the time you started to work at Sparrows Point, and you said there were then segregated bathrooms and stuff.

Yes, and locker rooms.

And locker rooms. When you came in as a tractor operator, were blacks in that classification, or were they pretty much all helpers?

No, they were in labor gangs and they were in tractors and they were in cranes. Not many on production lines at all at that time.

Any in maintenance?

Maintenance had a few, yes. For what it's worth, most were on the steel side where the real hot jobs were, and I guess it's not a good term to use here but the most unsafe jobs were in that area.

And that Local 2610 was maybe 65 to 70 percent black members?

At least.

Quite a bit different --

At least, and I guess that's the culture of it all. Even when the homes used to be down there, they had their own -- you know, their bungalows and all. There was the blacks here and there was the whites here, so it was an actual culture that was developed there.

Because Bartee in his tape described growing up in the town of Sparrows Point.

He would be --

As a pleasant place, and he looks back on it and realizes there were things that he might have changed, but he said it was a good place to grow up. His father worked at the Point.

Now what you just said is exactly what I said before. Even when I was kid, you never saw that differences of color. That's what you wanted to do and that's what they wanted to do. In fact, that word never entered my mind, they and me. It was us. They were black, we were white. As kids you don't even recognize the black and white part of it. As time went on you can see all this other really ugly situations that existed and these campaigners that come out here, save us and we're the race that was discriminated. I'm Irish, my race was discriminated here. I mean this is just what evolved after all this other --

When you started in Sparrows Point, there had been a history for maybe 20 years by that time, Mr. Charles Parish and people who --

Bernie Parish.

Well, Bernie Parish's father who tried arbitration in 1940 to get promoted, stuff like that, so there were stirrings around, and when I talked to Lee Douglass, he said one of the biggest impacts on him was having been in the service and coming out into the world where they had to be exposed to a lot of different stuff, and I am hearing from many of you that being in the service was a huge kind of a life-changing experience.

Absolutely.

Put you in touch with a bigger world, whole diverse people, unlike many people who have actually left the town of Sparrows Point or the area of Sparrows Point. So was there talk in the shop in the early '70s then of black workers being unhappy with the way that the job bidding structure was set up?

I think what really stirred it up was in the '60s. I think when the Civil Rights Act of '64 started to open up the doors for civil rights themself, and then '68 really took a better, stronger stand, and things that were going on, people really didn't believe it was happening anyway because that generation of black didn't feel what was embedded in their thinking today. It wasn't there, and it was the way of life, it was America, this is the way it is and that's the way they grew up. I wasn't back there when they were hanging the blacks and I wasn't there then, I don't even associate with doing that. I know the states, if you look at geography wide, there's states that really took advantage of the black, and in fact even went to Africa and get slaves and all that kind of stuff, and that was a condition that was here. It wasn't something that was created, other than the fact that it happened here. But the Indian, we can go on a whole different train of thinking here. But culturewise, America is a diversity of many different cultures housed with one rule of Washington trying to implement laws that are offensive to some. Religion is another sensitive type area to get into discussions, because this religion is better than that religion, and I believe the Lord is here and I believe the Lord is coming, and we got so much diversity in thinking here, it's unbelievable.

Were you there when -- for example, when you started the bathrooms were segregated?

Yes, locker rooms.

Do you remember when they were integrated, what that was like?

Well, that came in the '60s. That's when things started to really show the fact that hey, this is discriminatory, you can't do that. Why? Well, the '64 civil rights, '68. Well, prior to '64 there was none of that, and then just like any kind of an adjustment, after you are sort of I guess accustomed to what was going on with black versus white and then in your own mind you had this thought about -- in fact that you mention that, in North Point Road there are bars there, there was never a black person in there. They had a bar that they went in to called Mickey's, and it's like a restaurant bar type. It's still there to this day. That's where all the blacks went. Did they go there because there was no place else they could go? That could be, or did they go there because that's where they began to go to start with because they lived that sort of this is the way it is and change is not going to happen. So I was raised with that kind of concept I guess, but now that you mention something like that, that's another thing that hits you right square in the eyes, because Uncle Louis, Pop's, the Whitehouse, other bars. Anyway, Uncle Louis was probably one of the most active besides Pop's tavern, but there were all white people there. They were all -- some of the women, too, by the way, but there's not as many women there, and the management uniquely used to go to what's called The Greenhouse or something that was next to Pop's tavern. That was all management. They wouldn't go to any other bars because of the association, management with union, it wasn't embraced, and we used to be out there for awhile and get a little two to one and say let's go down there to the management bar, and we would, we would go in there, and as soon as you walk in the door, the guys would be (inaudible), they would be on the tables, we're going to challenge you guys a game, and we sort of jump into their area, but you know what --

Ever go down to the Sparrows Point Country Club?

Yeah, not by invitation, we just went, and if it wouldn't have been for the cops then at that time, there was a police force at Sparrows Point period. That isn't what it is today, rent a cop. These guys --

Chuck Swearingen's father was an officer.

Exactly right. I forget how we ended up going over there one time. It wasn't too well accepted, but it's a country club, and that even changed after years went by. They opened up the memberships to the hourly. All in all, the wrongs were trying to be placed right. There was a reaction to how you went about doing that, and with the consent decree, that's where the government realized, whether they liked it or not, they had to make and face the change.

Prior to the consent decree, was there a lot of discussion in the plant over right, wrong? Were there personal disputes?

No, not really. I mean I think what really started to surface is the civil rights part of it. I think some -- well, like Lee Douglass told you, there was no real ugly discrimination going on. This is just the way it is.

It was really in the issues of promotion.

Promotion was a big thing, and that fell in line not just with male, but female too, because there was never a female on the mills and then that door started to open so we had that opportunity there. Blacks started to get an opportunity to get on production jobs. They worked predominantly on the tractors and the cranes by the way -- I take it back. They were predominantly tractor operators. It was always white crane operators, and then production rollers and all, they were always white, they was never black. Blacks would either be scaleman or they would be pull tracers, you know those positions, and then naturally all this other thing started to surface, discriminatory and blah, blah, blah, and I guess between the international union --

Were you an officer then?

Yes.

Committeeman guy at this time?

Oh, yes.

So this was a hot topic.

Yes.

Were there other -- now, was Bartee an officer also?

Yes. Bartee, Wilson was still president, and me being who I am, sometimes you put your foot in your mouth, sometimes you just got to bite it off, that's all there is to it. When I saw that coming down and I fought it, that's where I got with a bunch of guys around the plant, black and white together, male, too, female, I started to put an organization together called the Employees for Equal Justice. I ran into a lot --

What year would this be; do you remember?

That would be around '77, '76.

So the consent decree has already been issued?

That's right, it was starting to come out, right.

But it's all this activity and the lawsuits and the tearing up of the local, disputes within the locals and the advisory board and so forth?

It stirred up so much, Bill, dissension started to develop and the common sense just wasn't there any more.

And also there were groups from outside like COAR which came down to the plant and picketed and leafletted and stuff like that?

Yes, and NAACP and it opened up all kinds of -- I guess it goes back to the squeaking wheel gets the grease philosophy, and then we started to see a lot of that, and there were guys who were buddies -- that was another unique thing. We worked together, the tractor department, black, white together and never any kind of thoughts about after work. Never -- that might be an idea on my part, but I stop at the bar, Uncle Louis or Pop's, or any of them, I never dreamt of thinking about well, Robinson here who is black, he didn't stop. I never even thought that way. If that's what they wanted to do, that's what they did, not dreaming that they couldn't do it if they wanted to. I know that sounds stupid, but that's just the feeling that was there eleven years. The consent decree, its purpose was to actually justify what was and bring it up to date what is now going to be, and by implementing the consent decree it caused more damage. It was a reverse discrimination case, period. Instead of it correcting something, it aggravated the situation, and that's what they did, and I thought --

How did it aggravate the --

Well, it's pitting one against the other, that was the main issue. Well, I'll give you an example. Most blacks were in the locker rooms. The consent decree come out with this settlement they considered, which a lot of blacks resented because of what it really meant, was why should that guy there who lived most of his life, work life in the locker room now get this money for being denied to be on the mill when he's not at this point not even qualified. Why should that be an exception to the rule. That's what aggravated a lot of people right there in itself. And that thing just festered, it just got worse. There was one against the other, and guys -- Johnny Robertson and Hal, these are black guys that I knew, they sort of stood away, they didn't want to talk any more, they just barred themselves. You are the enemy, okay. You are the redneck, and it really got ugly, it got ugly in a lot of ways, and I used to come home here, my wife would be sitting around the table, I would say you know I don't understand what's happening here. We are a union. Union means all of our members, black, white, male, female, but yet this is allowed to go on way back then. I mean you are talking in the '40s, this was allowed to be there then and now suddenly the generation that's here now are classified as being discriminated against. Well, if anyone that was discriminated against was back then in the '40s, not here. This was what was allowed to be. So anyway, with the discrimination part of it, I got pretty bent out of it. I was going to even resign as a union representative because I couldn't get the support from the union, and the reason I couldn't get the support is because they were part of the consent decree.

And you are talking about the officers and the International, the district?

Yeah. See, the locals, the local unions sort of had their own powers, but naturally they had to answer to a higher power, and I can see it now because it's over with, there were those locally who contributed but didn't want to be recognized for it, and I accepted that. Quite a few of them by the way without mentioning names, but they might be embarrassed now that had called me at home and said LeRoy, you know the reasons that you are coming up with this new group and you know the International is not endorsing it, we know this, we understand it and we want to help you.

Well, tell me how you started the Steelworkers for Equal Justice.

What I did first by the way, Bill, I got to talking to a few guys, and I said look, we're not going to be able to do something within the union, grievance ain't going to help. Why isn't the grievance going to help? Because it's an agreed-to consent decree, all parties agree.

Had people been displaced or they were just denied future promotions, or what was the issue really?

Well, the issue of getting in place was the big question, the leapfrogging is what we called it. I guess between unit seniority, department seniority and plant seniority, and this consent decree was an opportunity just to merge all three of them into one plant seniority. And then the next issue in front of the plant seniority came white, black -- we're not worried about female. White, black, white, black, it was a percentage thing, and they were looking at different sections of the Sparrows Point operations which had more black than white and white than black and that kind of thing. So they were sort of looking at that kind of schematic of how they were going to do this. When they did fully implement the consent decree, it did violate promotional rights, it eliminated them, and that's where I got on this tangent of reverse discrimination, and I got to talking to a few guys in of all places the bar, and they said LeRoy, you are shooting a dead duck, it ain't going to happen. I said look, we don't know nothing unless we try it. Let's bring attention to this thing. Discrimination is heavy, it's out there, it's on everybody's lips. Well, have you ever heard the word reverse discrimination? Well, this discrimination is causing reverse discrimination. And then we went on the whole nine yards of this and that. Well, finally to make the organization legal, because I knew I was going to get heat, I got a -- I was the chairman, then I had a treasurer, I had a secretary.

Who was the treasurer; do you remember?

The treasurer was -- I had the name on the end of my lips. Ernie Johnson, he was the treasurer.

Is he still alive?

I don't know. I know he retired. He took -- I think he took the lump sum. Ernie Johnson. Then I had a guy by the name of Rogers who was black, he was the secretary.

You don't remember his first name?

No, unfortunately. Like I say back then --

You don't know if Rogers is still around?

I have no idea.

It's very interesting in hearing the discussions that this is a mixed race group which is --

It was purpose.

-- a whole different issue.

Our whole issues were focused on the same object really and what we said. Now here's black, he's in a job, why should I have to give up my job to that guy in the locker room because he's black? Now, we have a plant seniority. To get into a unit, you have to fit into that department and then you have these exercises. This was what this was all about, and I think in all mindset I think they looked at that as sort of a lateral discrimination because he didn't want the job at that time. So they got the job in the locker room. It was laid back type of uptown job. So as this thing started to get uglier, and me particularly I spent all my time in the tractor department. So we have a white guy now, this ain't black, this is white. He comes out of the warehouse with his seniority, gets to leap frog over top of me in my unit, and I screamed how can that happen? And then we got all this happening around us, Bill, and I said look, we can talk all we want, okay, it's like talking in the wind. Let's create a group, let's get it legalized because the IRS and all this other -- I know it's going to be turned into this what are we doing or is this a scam or what we are doing here because we are handling other monies and every nickel had to be accounted for. So we do all this, and we get a pretty good group. I hold the meeting, and we get people who came up --

Where did you have the first meeting?

Up in our own union hall, unbeknownst to certain individuals we had it, and we had a pretty good turnout. At that time I guess it was 50, 70 people, and we were talking, black, white, male, female. We were talking exactly where we thought we could go with this, and I said we all know in this room we can't turn to our international union, we can't turn to our local union because they are all part of the consent decree. We can't turn to anybody in the government like the NLRB, we can't do any of that because the government is part of the agreement, the company is part of the agreement. So what I'm going to do is find us a lawyer that will handle it. Well, that wasn't easy to do because no lawyer wanted to handle the consent decree, because they knew that that was already a binding agreement between all three parties, so how are you going to fight that issue. My concern was if we're not fighting the discrimination, we are fighting the reverse discrimination. I couldn't get them to separate the thinking on that. Charles Lee Knight, he just happened to pop up, one of the guys were going to Dundalk College, Community College, and his name come up. Ed Angelo, he was the other one that was part of our group. He was a roller on the tandem mill.

Is he still around?

I don't know. That was years ago. He may be. He used to live in Kingsville back then. I don't know if he is still alive today. That's hard to tell. Anyways, we get introduced to Charles Lee Knight, and Charles impressed me immensely because other lawyers that we thought were going to take this case and just didn't want to have anything to do with it, and he says well, let me tell you guys something, this is him speaking before we passed on. He says I came to Baltimore without a penny. I can leave Baltimore without a penny. That's sort of his comment. He said but I want to tell you guys something right now. First off, it's not going to be easy, going to be costly and there's no guarantee, but I will take it on, and we did. We went through our court. We went through the Appeals Court and we are sitting and waiting for the Supreme Court.

And this took several years?

Oh, yes. It was probably in the '80s, '83, somewhere in there.

Was there a backlash in the shop over this?

Yeah, sure, there was. I mean there were those who just determined that what's done was injustice.

Including some of the officers in the local?

Some of them. Well, some of them were just -- there were guys at that time, some of them were so dedicated to the International looking for a staff job that they just didn't want to have their actual true feeling known, but there were others like I am telling you who had told me in confidence, and I respect that and they give me their -- we started off getting donations of $50. You don't think that wasn't tough, but we did, and then we held raffles, things like that to keep the money flowing for the litigation. Anyway, it got all the way down to the point to the Supreme Court, and then Charles gets this response that the Supreme Court will not hear the case, and I was confused by that. How can they not hear this case? We have gone through all the procedures, we've gone all through the courts, how can they deny us.

You don't know where all this paperwork went?

Unfortunately, no. I will tell you where you can probably find a lot of it, I don't know how neatly he keeps his records, but it would be in his records I'm sure.

Lee Knight?

Lee Knight.

Well, Lee Knight died.

Passed on, yeah, but I'm sure the college they got some records of some sort. If I knew today what we are sitting here doing today I would have -- because I'm a squirrel when it comes to that kind of stuff, I've got things downstairs and up in the attic that only prove valuable to me.

I would like those at some point.

If I could find them.

Well, on anything, because we've collected signs. I've got rain coats.

Let me show you something.

Wait, finish the story and then we'll do that. You've got to pick up your wife or you are going to get divorced.

It can't happen. We are past that point of disagreement. We compromise, that's a different term now. I will have to give up something, but fine, she understands. That's what I'm telling you what makes my wife unique. I've got so many things going on in my life, things that I just take and went right for.

So how did Lee tell you? Did he call you up?

Well, we all had -- at East Point on the restaurants down there, and we all are sitting down there, and as soon as I seen him walk in the door I knew that it ain't going to be good news. So he went ahead and he told us it wouldn't be accepted, and he had said from the beginning, and I can't argue with it, didn't argue with it that he said it would be a tough road to hoe, no guarantees, but my comment then from the beginning was nothing ventured, nothing gained. We've got to do something. This is so clear to me, and I'm an average person. How in the hell can something discriminatory not be reversed discrimination, because this is what it is. Look at the repercussions and stuff, look what's happened, look at the leap frog, look at the -- not security, but the seniority practices that were in place for so many years for job protection, for promotions and things like that. That's all dissolved. How can it just happen like that? It affects us directly and that's discrimination. So anyway, it all come to an end and some of the guys will never let me forget it. I told you, I told you. I said all right, you told me. Now I am telling you this, at least we tried and we moved on.

Was there any backlash from black workers who felt that was an unfair thing to do?

I think those who cashed their checks just took that as you are going to give it to me, I'm going to spend it. Did it change them? No. Did they accept that? No.

Because there was a large number of them who refused to cash the check.

There was, yeah, and that was supposed to send a signal, too, and we had black representatives, too, by the way in the staff. Bernie Parish. They, too -- I can't speak for either of them, but they, too, within its own organization dealt with it I guess as effectively as they could, but like any organization there's control. It is what we are today.

Is Bernie Parish still alive?

I don't know. It's a shame that all these relationships that through the years that we developed and these challenges that we faced, the guys that were really instrumental in it, you don't see or hear from any more. The only time I get to do what I want to do, and I like it, don't get me wrong, I do miss not getting them phone calls and the conditions that exist. I do miss the challenges. It's taken a lot of adjustment to do that, but I found the relief by putting some of my feelings on an article and challenging somebody's comment about this and that. Outsourcing is a sore spot with me. Healthcare is a sore spot with me. Food bank, you've been on the food bank a lot time, Harvest for the Hungry. Why should that even exist in this country? Now we've got this big -- it's going to be bigger than anybody realizes, this Latino, the illegal immigration going to be a big, big issue. It shouldn't shock anybody to know what I had said before the squealing wheel gets the oil, and they are going to be squealing enough to where they are going to make exceptions to the rule. When they make exceptions to the rule, there's diminution, it's over, it's done.

Well, let me just ask you one final question then, and you answered this under certain -- as a young man you went to work at Sparrows Point. If you had to do it over again would you?

Truthfully?

Yes.

No. If I had to do it over again I would have done what my mother told me to do, to stay in the Navy. I would have retired from the Navy. In fact, that was part of my life that started off 17 years old and reciprocating engines -- I don't know how familiar you are with the terms I'm going to use here, but the reciprocating engines are what promoted our aircraft, blimps, everything was propel driven, and then as time went on and in the latter part of years where jet engines become the propulsion system, all that came really to open up to me the production station. They had all these jets and propeller type of things that they were experimenting with, because it was an experimental situation and you got to see that, the beginning of it. You got to see the testing, and here I sit going on 69 seeing it put to action on the TV, seeing the self-propelled (inaudible). It's fascinating, and to think that some of the things that I have seen as I got older, you would think I would be 150 years old with the changes, but I just happened to be in that period of time where these things were going on, gas lights to electric, from black and white TV, round to color TV, big. VCRs, CDs. It's like damn, what more can be said.

And you said earlier that your mom is 92.

She's 92.

She can probably tell us some --

Oh, my God, yeah. You can go all the way back. Now you are talking time when the war was a big issue. My dad didn't go into the war because he had so many kids, he was exempt from the war. I guess anybody you would really sit down and talk to has a lot to say about their individual life and experiences, and that's fascinating in itself.

So you would have stayed in the Navy?

Yes, I would.

Have you ever thought about how your life would be different?

Well, a couple things I thought about. I wouldn't have the kids I had because we would be moving from base to base. With me, I went from Norfolk, Virginia, to Gitmo City, the VU10 squadron. What our purpose down there was we had the B25s, we had the F5Fs and F6 hellcats and the F9F jets, and with the reciprocating engines, we would tow targets for the fleet so that the destroyers would be able to take their target practice, and we would tow that target up there. Well, my first time up there I was a towman, which meant I'm the one that pulled out the cable so they could shoot at it. Well, here's a B25. If you can imagine, a B25, double engine. We are up there, already got air pockets up and down, oh gees, and then boom, you hear the repercussions where the shell come up and hit the target, which is 200 feet away from the aircraft, but it hit that target, and the repercussion, the plane went like that. Oh, my God, we're hit, we are hit, we are hit. And the pilot up there, the lieutenant hollered back, "Hey, look, just sit back and just let the cable go, okay. We'll handle the ship." And then we get down and I couldn't eat. We had supper. I couldn't even eat supper, I was so upset.

You think you would have missed all the activity thought at the Point, all the stuff that you did with your life?

Yeah. Well, I guess the other side of that, not doing it all over again, I guess the other side is exactly what you would miss, because that's what my life is right now, that's what got me -- as I was already quoted as an angry old man. Yeah, I'm angry. I'm angry at a lot of things that shouldn't have to be. I'm angry at the fact that here I have three grandsons and I'm sitting here with a life stolen question whether tomorrow we are going to sell this house just to exist or whether my Medicare is going to run out or whether -- sure, if I had to do it over again, I would look into that, and the reason I am saying that, and that's hindsight, because I know what was already, so I don't know what would have been there, except I would have a pension that would not be questionable. My health benefits, which through the VA would not be questionable, even for my wife I provided for under retirement because it's a tri-state type of healthcare. I'm a VA, a veteran now, I get the benefits of a prescription program, I get the benefit of going down there for a checkup, but I don't get the other perks that may be available if I was wounded, but God help me I wasn't wounded, but I just feel that's a little bit discriminatory, too. You served your country, you spent your four years over there, you were in the same places that guys lost their lives and arms and what have you, but you were lucky enough not to be one of them. But then you come back, you don't get the benefit of those benefits in total. Parts of it, piece of this and piece of that. That's another part of life.

All right.

The union by the way -- I will end it this way. I loved the union, I loved the direction that it has to take and the change, and I question those in positions have the ability to make those decisions. That's the bigger question that comes out of my mind, because it is what I said. Outsourcing is going to cripple this country, it's going to cripple organized labor, and if organized labor doesn't become one solid organization to where you can feel the power that the immigrants are going to show today when you see TV and what power across this country can do and how you can cripple the politicians with power of those who like us retirees have with our vote.

Any one last story that you can think of if somebody said tell me one thing about Sparrows Point.

One last story?

One thing that would sort of represent all the years down there.

There's so many different versions of what hits you strongly and what doesn't hit you. Well, really it's not one thing I can focus on. I think the thing that I look forward to, and this might be odd for some people to hear, I look forward to going to work. I enjoyed it, I enjoyed every day in the mill as I enjoyed every day at that union hall. Even though there were hostile feelings and there was arguments, but it makes you feel like you are a part of it. The union gives me an identity of where I spent my life. I'm a retired steelworker, very proud to be a retired steelworker. If I retired from the Navy, I would have been a very proud -- I'm still proud of my service time, but I would have been a proud Navy person, military person, respectful of our people over there right now giving their lives up for a war that should not be, lives lost for a war that should not be, and here we sit here we are looking at gas prices going up, we are looking at electricity going up. It's just something else. I mean it's an experience I guess to live it, to be able to talk about it and then be able to see it on tape will be an experience in itself.

And so you felt it was good for your son to go to work there?

Well, I did and I didn't. It's a choice he made. I did what my dad did to me, you make the choice. In fact, he had that old saying of you make your bed, you've got to lie in it. Well, that's what he wanted, that's what he got and he's a good production worker. Again like I said, it's not too long ago, he was talking about the group and they want to eliminate a solution tech who is part of that group. Well, the solution part now is taken over by technology, so you don't need that kind of a balance, they do it automatic now. So naturally the company is not going to keep another person just to stand by. That's not going to happen. That's why technology takes the jobs, and he was sort of confused about where he stood. Dad, I'm here to make money, that's what I am there for. I understand that. The company is there to make a profit, but we are there to share the wealth, and that's what we are supposed to be. If you can't share the wealth with the crew that you are working with and you lose respect in your own group, you are going to be a man without a helmet.

He never seemed to have the interest in participating as a union officer the way you did?

No, he never did.

Do you think the fact that you were away a lot when he was growing up had something to do with that?

Well, I think the better part of what was more pertaining to why he has this lackadaisical attitude towards being more involved in the union is what they did to me, and it isn't the union, and I keep trying to get that in their head. It isn't the union that did this to me. It's the companies and the decree out there that did this, and then they throw out a couple comments as if to say well, if they would have taken some of your direction before, the union would still be stronger, but nobody saw that way. I said John, you know I guess we are all human, we all look at what we think we can do to make things a lot stronger and better, but sometimes by preventing technology it's defeating us to start with overall, and that's not an easy decision to make, it isn't, and the union is going to make a decision somewhere down the line or they are going to get the attitude like my son has got and other younger workers right now, they don't see the need, but there is always going to be a need for organized labor always.

Picture here of LeRoy with his SOAR hat on. There you go. Proud still.

Very proud, and this organization is going to reactivate the sleeping majority of retirees. Amen.